Top CASTRATORS
 

I'm getting more and more steamed with the ongoing CASTRATION of race horses, and I thought it might be a good idea to see if I can get some data to support my opinions. At present, off the top of my head, here's my list

1) Wesley Ward --- don't even think about bring a colt into his barn --cut 'em right after you buy them

2) Stanley Hough -- allow a colt or two every so often but their nuts are GONE typically by the end of the year

3) Pat Reynolds --- the CLAIM and CUT trainer


With all the focus on juicing and all the use of DRUGS in racing why is nothing written about the rampant castrating of horses? Is it because giving a horse TESTOSTERONE after it's been cut is fine?

Fat Man... you know that almost all racehorses SHOULD be gelded for behavioral reasons, right?

They should castrate more.

The ultimate equipment change.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but assuming you have spent decent money on the horse, have reasonable back breeding and considering what has happened to breeding money, why would you want to geld a horse unless medically or behaviorly necessary? In other words, if it's being done, isn't it a final resort vs an "equipment change"?

Or is Fat Man's point that some crews treat it too casually?

Pedigree's worthless if the horse isn't very good (for the most part) - so I don't think they worry about it with mediocre horses - either you don't cut him and he never wins or you cut him and maybe he wins a few races or even gets good. Not cutting a bad horse isn't going to make him stallion-worthy. I agree that they should probably geld more.

I wonder what would've happened to Discreet Cat if Hough had gelded him. . .

they should of the horse was not that good. people on here were calling him a monster. the horse had problems and probably should not be bred. thats part of the problem people breed unfit horses and wonder why the offspring breaks down, basic biology 101. who am i to say rich people have to have something to piss away their money on but not at the expense of horse racing. the breed weakens everytime they breed these so called "fast" horses that have weak limbs. now some fools are paying 50 mil for big brown. so they can reproduce more horses with bad feet . go figure .

The interesting question is how long would DC have lasted in Hough's barn BEFORE getting cut. :rolleyes:

I've worked on the backstretch, and while STUDS can be a handful, there's nothing more depressing than being around a sad, old gelding. Like a junkie, it awaits its next refreshing shot of testosterone.

I realize there are 'traditional' ways of doing things on the racetrack. Some of these just need to change.

it would of been a blessing. the horse could not make training or racing dates due to physical problems. breed physically bad horse get more breakdowns and injuries . don't you people see what happens , these horses can't even run without weeks and weeks off. i wonder why ?

I've been around plenty of geldings too, and I don't find them to be sad and old at all. However, most of them probably weren't 'roided up in their days on the track.

Chuck can probably provide some better color on this topic than anyone.

I've found that this phrase is generally applicable to 92.7 percent of the topics discussed on DT.

Filly's RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are a hundred reasons why gelding horses is a positive thing, there is only one thing that is negative. Other than the obvious ones about behavior, geldings are generally lighter than colts which is beneficial for soundness.

None other than Alfred Vanderbilt once said that if he had gelded EVERY colt he ever owned he'd have only made one mistake, Native Dancer.

Unless a horse is truly a prospect to be a top class stallion AND is sound and well built there is no reason NOT to geld. The breed would be better, not worse if fewer people had the opportunity to say "He was slow and sore but he's by Storm Cat...so why not?"

If the owner of an uncut horse decides to try and outplace him for a post race career, he'll have to be cut any how as most riding barns don't allow stallions and don't have the proper facilities for them. I've seen nice horses passed over because the potential adoptee didn't want a stallion or the initial cost of the procedure.

The horse in my avatar won 2 races at minor tracks and no one in their right mind should have considered him to have breeding potential. Yet he was kept entire til age 6, even with modest breeding himself. At 15, he's still studdish and territorial like a stallion. Certain behavioral traits are set and gelding late often doesn't change that.

I tend to theink that males have a fear of castration that prevents them from finding it acceptable in any animal. If an animal is not breeding quality it will likley be healthier neutered. To a horse "being male" is a behavior based. He doesn't contemplate his maleness, he has no emotional connection to his "parts." If you take something from him that he never knew was there, he'll never miss it, or them as the case may be. A gelding is not standing around lamenting the lack of sex life.

I read so many threads about breeders breeding poor quality horses yet many decry the process of neutering. To not geld a horse and yet not breed him is cruel. Horses are herd animals yet stallions are kept separated because when pastured together they fight, often to the death. They are generally kept isolated so as not to disturb other horses. They are often hard to handle and special arrangements may have to be made to transport them to horse shows and again once they are there. Stallions need firm discipline and handling and most riding or show stables simply cannot manage them. They are restricted in their opportunites, cost more money, require more land and serve no more purpose (often less purpose) than a gelding. All this so that they don't have to accept the ego blow of neutering. That's bad math.

these trainers are not gelding the colts to "save the breed", or "ensure a good home"...

They are gelding them for their Racing operation, and most often for a short-term benefit. Some geld off a claim.

There is a benefit for racing(or training and and caring for the animal between races), that is percieved by the gelders. They geld the horse and put it on a steroid regimine. Steroids aren't illegal for colts, so steroids aren't the reason. Something in the Behavior is percieved as a benefit.

Yeah. These are the same males taking pills or getting implants for bigger cocks and pills so they can get it up so they can bang their UGLY wives. Yet, it's 'healthier' to geld horses. Get real.

And, in 19th century France they were gelding young boys who played the female roles in operas rather than just using women.

The balls are there naturally. It thus follows that it's not 'healthier' for them not to be there.

This thread sucks balls.

Very few men are comfortable with the idea, because they wouldn't want it done to them. Just as in humans, they cause more trouble than they are worth sometimes.

Dangerously close to Sumitas level, dude.

Isn't gelding linked to a ridgeling in some respect? Like to ease the discomfort for the horse?:confused:

I can only imagine some of the HALL of FAME castrators, GP Odom or Burton Cocks doing some PED or Viagra commercials.

"Hello, I'm Burton Cocks, and I can't get it up, HOWEVER, it's perfectly fine to GELD horses because it's HEALTHIER for them. Why let the testicles produce TESTOSTERONE naturally when you can just cut them off and inject the horse with synthetic TESTOSTERONE. Look what it did for Floyd Landis"

No excuse for cruelty, no matter how you spin it.

Why do they castrate them at all? Can't they give them an operation that stops the flow of sperm like they do in humans (vasectomy)? This would allow sperm production and the production of testosterone.

This paragraph is riddled with understatement, ridiculous athropomorphism, and gross exaggeration. Intact horses can not only be a handful, they can also be downright dangerous (ie the veterinarian who recently was killed by a Morgan stallion). As far as their mental state, even if one could ascertain the emotions geldings harbor, who's to say its brought on by the absence of their testicles (as opposed to the lifestyle its subjected to as a racehorse in general)? Furthermore, not all geldings receive injections of anabolic steroids, much less on a regular basis.

Any industry that deals with the utilization of animals for the benefit of man whether it be for entertainment, food, or fiber presupposes the notion that mankind has an inherent right to 'dominion over animals', which essentially entails stripping it of its natural tendencies and modifying its existence to facilitate its exploitation. If that is at the core of your dilemma, I don't see how singling out ball-lopping will somehow give you peace of mind. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your stance on the idea of racing horses at all.

So, the rational solution, then, is to just castrate without regard to the individual case?

I mean there aren't any trainers out there abusing this, are there?

Again, unless you have personally worked for the 3 trainers you named, you make assumptions. How do you know that they are not considered on an individual basis? None of the 3 you mentioned typically deal with well-bred stock and 2 handle a lot of claiming types.

A more head-on approach to this discussion would be to put you in the hot seat. What are indications are acceptable to you when considering castrating a horse?

Hough has had a few well bred ones for Robsham. . . DC and Sargent Seattle off the top of my head. . . Didn't geld either one of them but DC only raced once with him and Sargent Seattle ran really big in his debut and then sucked in his only other start.

In some cases. The horse I ran today, Marina Market was a ridgeling and his undescended testicle was causing him a lot of discomfort, hence his descent into the claiming ranks. I claimed him thinking this might be a cause for his deteriorating performances. I asked if they could only remove the undescended testicle, but the vet said no way, at least in his case. After he was cut most of his hind end issues cleared up, and I dare say he is a much improved animal. No, he doesn't wait around for his steriod shot (doesn't get any) and he's much happier because his hind end is not hurting. He is also a LOT kinder to be around now. He used to be a stone killer in the barn, now at least you can get near him and he will only try to take a small piece out of your arm and not try to kick you through the wall of his stall.

On another note, I wish I had gelded Cape of Storms, he is very studdish and real tough in the barn and downright stupid sometimes which is a bad combination. He managed to hurt himself in the barn and now he's laid up for 3 months.

I guess it's a rather long winded way of saying I don't believe in routine gelding, but there are some cases where it is beneficial to the horse and all involved.

I'm sure if we looked into your stable, we wouldn't see a majority of geldings (amongst the males).

I don't think the same applies to the trainers I mentioned initially, and certainly many others I left out.

Maybe someone with access to stats can dig up the data on the 'top castrators'.

The cessation of the flow of sperm does nothing to make a male horse more manageable or less "interested" in females, as a man with a vasectomy will tell you.
Not every gelding is given testosterone and certainly it is not done in non racing settings.
Taking away the interest in sex makes a horse more manageable and it's anthropomorphic to assume that a horse misses what he never had a chance to use. It's like assuming that a mare who is unable to have a foal for some biological reason longs for motherhood whenever she sees a mare and her foal roming in a pasture. She has no inborn concept of "motherhood."

There's a wise old horseman's saying,,,"He's a nice stallion. He'd make an excellent gelding". There's a lot of truth in that.

TFM, I understand your point. It is ridiculous to geld as a routine. Like anything else you have to treat the horse as an individual.

stop male haten yo/

Yo, I said "a wise old horseman's saying", not a *GREAT* idea me and the girls came up with one night while out having adult beverages at The Red Dog Saloon!!!!

The title of this thread reminds me of " Carnal Knowledge " and Jack Nicholson's slide show " Ball busters on parade. "

I logged on to this thread because I thought it was about ME!

You're just sorry you didn't make Jack's slide show.

I was 8 years old then and not yet an official ball buster, except close friends...

My wife can produce huge happy geldings.
(Not actually by way of birth)

We also have giant cats though.

The squirrels around our house (they are so
cute why dont we put out some more corn) are
the largest rodents on earth.

If anyone has an animal that needs some beef,
send them to us.

and of course she gelded me early on, after the progeny... I became quite docile