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-   -   Inspirational and depressing at the same time (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22445)

justindew 05-14-2008 08:13 AM

Inspirational and depressing at the same time
 
I found this over at DRF.com. I think this horse got robbed of Horse of the Year in 1997. He faced Skip Away six times, and beat him in four of those races.

112 debut Beyer? Will we ever see that again? And he raced nine times in 1997, racing at least once a month from February through September.

One of my favorites of all time.

http://community.drf.com/formblog/files/formal_gold.pdf

slotdirt 05-14-2008 08:15 AM

Son of one of my all-time favorites. Trivia question - how many Breeders Cup race winners are currently standing in West Virginia?

philcski 05-14-2008 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt
Son of one of my all-time favorites. Trivia question - how many Breeders Cup race winners are currently standing in West Virginia?

Black Tie Affair stands there, as does Prized... so I'd guess 2.

justindew 05-14-2008 08:26 AM

Formal Gold's record in races at distances under 1 1/4 miles was 12-8-4-0. His worst defeat was 3/4 length.

slotdirt 05-14-2008 08:30 AM

I always liked the way Black Tie Affair won route races. Get the lead, guns blazing, and dare someone to catch you. He was Commentator with moxie.

slotdirt 05-14-2008 08:37 AM

A personal favorite of mine. I'm hijacking justin's thread, and proudly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiMml...eature=related

blackthroatedwind 05-14-2008 09:30 AM

I don't care about eclipse awards.....very simply Formal Gold was one of the best horses I have ever seen.

justindew 05-14-2008 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I don't care about eclipse awards.....very simply Formal Gold was one of the best horses I have ever seen.

Nevertheless, it's a crime that he didn't get Horse of the Year in '97.

6-1 in the Donn was also a crime.

justindew 05-14-2008 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus
What a thrilling three-way round robin that was among 'Gold, Skip Away, and Will's Way.

And if Louis Quatorze hadn't gotten hurt after winning the Ben Ali in the spring.....

The handicap division of 1997 was probably the best we've had in the last 15 years.

justindew 05-14-2008 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus
I know that he didn't face anyone in the Ben Ali, but he did win by a county. (14 lengths?)

Editor's Note was in that field.

parsixfarms 05-14-2008 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew
I found this over at DRF.com. I think this horse got robbed of Horse of the Year in 1997. He faced Skip Away six times, and beat him in four of those races.

112 debut Beyer? Will we ever see that again?

I agree that he should have won Horse of the Year in 1997. I was at the Woodward that year, and he smoked Skip Away.

On the debut Beyer question, the only horse that I can think of off the top of my head is Rodeo. He broke his maiden at Belmont by something like 14 lengths, getting 6F in 1:08 and change.

philcski 05-14-2008 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew
And if Louis Quatorze hadn't gotten hurt after winning the Ben Ali in the spring.....

The handicap division of 1997 was probably the best we've had in the last 15 years.

Add in the fact that the 3YO's were excellent too, probably best 1-2-3-4 Derby finishers of the past 25 years (and the Belmont winner, another good one, didn't even run.)

King Glorious 05-14-2008 10:27 AM

Wow. Fifteen posts in this thread talking about the handicap division of 1997 and not one mention of Gentlemen. I guess people forget that he won the Hollywood Gold Cup, the Pacific Classic, the San Antonio (beating the previous year's BC Classic winner Alphabet Soup), and the Pimlico Special (beating some horse named Skip Away). In my opinion, at his best, he was the best of the group that year but at the very least, a thread shouldn't go 15 deep on the subject and he not be mentioned.

philcski 05-14-2008 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious
Wow. Fifteen posts in this thread talking about the handicap division of 1997 and not one mention of Gentlemen. I guess people forget that he won the Hollywood Gold Cup, the Pacific Classic, the San Antonio (beating the previous year's BC Classic winner Alphabet Soup), and the Pimlico Special (beating some horse named Skip Away). In my opinion, at his best, he was the best of the group that year but at the very least, a thread shouldn't go 15 deep on the subject and he not be mentioned.

Fair point... think that says a lot about the year, though.

blackthroatedwind 05-14-2008 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms
I agree that he should have won Horse of the Year in 1997. I was at the Woodward that year, and he smoked Skip Away.

On the debut Beyer question, the only horse that I can think of off the top of my head is Rodeo. He broke his maiden at Belmont by something like 14 lengths, getting 6F in 1:08 and change.

Rodeo didn't get that kind of number.

Meadowlake ran one of the highest debut numbers of all time ( somewhere between 109 and 113 I believe ). Chilluki ran around a 108 at 4 1/2 furlongs at CD.

blackthroatedwind 05-14-2008 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious
Wow. Fifteen posts in this thread talking about the handicap division of 1997 and not one mention of Gentlemen. I guess people forget that he won the Hollywood Gold Cup, the Pacific Classic, the San Antonio (beating the previous year's BC Classic winner Alphabet Soup), and the Pimlico Special (beating some horse named Skip Away). In my opinion, at his best, he was the best of the group that year but at the very least, a thread shouldn't go 15 deep on the subject and he not be mentioned.


Gentlemen was terrific as well. It was unfortunate that when he came to NY in the Fall of 1998 he wasn't the same horse.

blackthroatedwind 05-14-2008 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus
Was that when he and Skip Away dueled torridly, while Wagon Limit went past both to win the Gold Cup in the slop?

I don't remember the race well enough to describe it that way but it was the day Wagon Limit won.

philcski 05-14-2008 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus
Was that when he and Skip Away dueled torridly, while Wagon Limit went past both to win the Gold Cup in the slop?

Yes. Chuck and I were talking about that the other day, it was one of the last big races where he was an assistant to Jerkens.

parsixfarms 05-14-2008 11:04 AM

This thread just goes to show how much of a crapshoot the breeding side of the business can be. The horses mentioned (or referenced) include Formal Gold, Skip Away, Louis Quatorze, Will's Way, Gentlemen, Silver Charm, Captain Bodgit, Free House, Behrens, Black Tie Affair and Touch Gold - all serious racehorses. Of all these, probably only Touch Gold could be considered a success at stud.

parsixfarms 05-14-2008 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Rodeo didn't get that kind of number.

You're right. According to his page on the farm in LA where he stands, Rodeo ran a 104 Beyer in his debut, which they claim was the fastest of any 2YO that year.

slotdirt 05-14-2008 11:13 AM

I don't know, Louis Quatorze has had a couple of nice runners, and Black Tie Affair, of course, is the sire of Formal Gold. Free House, well, he died, so I'm not going to hold that against him. Silver Charm wasn't exactly given a chance domestically; we'll see how he works out in Japan.

parsixfarms 05-14-2008 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt
I don't know, Louis Quatorze has had a couple of nice runners, and Black Tie Affair, of course, is the sire of Formal Gold. Free House, well, he died, so I'm not going to hold that against him. Silver Charm wasn't exactly given a chance domestically; we'll see how he works out in Japan.

I realize that some have had a few nice horses, but with the exception of Touch Gold and Skip Away, these horses have been relegated to serving regional markets. Consider how they have done versus some of the other horses that entered stud in either 1998 or 1999 (many of which had far less distinguished racing careers and started at very modest stud fees in comparison): Arch, Benchmark, Distorted Humor, Elusive Quality, Grand Slam, Indian Charlie, Langfuhr, Northern Afleet, Pulpit, Smoke Glacken, Stormy Atlantic, Tale of the Cat and Valid Expectations.

slotdirt 05-14-2008 12:20 PM

I think I read Captain Bodgit or Will's Way - I can't remember which - is standing in Alberta somewhere for like $1500.

Of the ones you mentioned, Skip Away has to have been the biggest disappointment at stud.

sumitas 05-14-2008 12:23 PM

It's difficult to pass on racing performance.

philcski 05-14-2008 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumitas
It's difficult to pass on racing performance.

Compelling stuff, man. Nice job.

Pedigree Ann 05-14-2008 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew
Formal Gold's record in races at distances under 1 1/4 miles was 12-8-4-0. His worst defeat was 3/4 length.

He was getting weight from Skip Away in every race except the Woodward, in case you didn't notice.

blackthroatedwind 05-14-2008 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann
He was getting weight from Skip Away in every race except the Woodward, in case you didn't notice.


And his Woodward was his best race and easiest victory over Skip Away. Thank you for pointing out what I have said all along.....weight is meaningless. Much appreciated.

Pedigree Ann 05-14-2008 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms
This thread just goes to show how much of a crapshoot the breeding side of the business can be. The horses mentioned (or referenced) include Formal Gold, Skip Away, Louis Quatorze, Will's Way, Gentlemen, Silver Charm, Captain Bodgit, Free House, Behrens, Black Tie Affair and Touch Gold - all serious racehorses. Of all these, probably only Touch Gold could be considered a success at stud.

None of these top runners was fashionably-bred; in fact, they were all considered a bit 'down-market' in their breeding and were treated accordingly by the top tier breeders. They got the mares who were out of the half-sisters to the good runners instead of the half-sisters themselves, that sort of thing. Captain Bodgit died young, too.

VOL JACK 05-14-2008 02:21 PM

Funny that a horse could run second twice while earning a 122 and 126 beyer. How times have changed.

justindew 05-14-2008 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann
He was getting weight from Skip Away in every race except the Woodward, in case you didn't notice.

I don't have Skip Away's PPs in front of me, and it's been 10 years. But other than his win over Cigar at Belmont, I seem to remember his biggest victories coming against suspect fields.

justindew 05-14-2008 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VOL JACK
Funny that a horse could run second twice while earning a 122 and 126 beyer. How times have changed.

...and when is the last time the 5th place finisher in the BC Classic earned a 108?

parsixfarms 05-14-2008 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann
None of these top runners was fashionably-bred; in fact, they were all considered a bit 'down-market' in their breeding and were treated accordingly by the top tier breeders. They got the mares who were out of the half-sisters to the good runners instead of the half-sisters themselves, that sort of thing. Captain Bodgit died young, too.

I agree that some were not fashionably bred, but compared to the others listed above, Behrens (Pleasant Colony), Will's Way (Easy Goer) and Captain Bodgit (Saint Ballado) certainly fit the bill. Starting out, they were certainly no less fashionably bred than horses like Indian Charlie (In Excess), Valid Expectations (Valid Appeal), Northern Afleet (Afleet), and Smoke Glacken (Two Punch).

Horses like Distorted Humor, Arch, and Elusive Quality all began their careers at stud fees in the $10,000 range, so it's not like they were getting bred to top mares when they started out. They just outperformed their more recognizable (from a racing perspective) contemporaries in the breeding shed and, as a result, are now getting the top mares that they earned the hard way.

Finally, the Thoroughbred Times Stallion Directory lists Captain Bodgit as standing in Canada.


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