Dubai v. Breeders Cup question...
 

I've attended the last 3 Breeders' Cups in person and I think at least 3 horses to my count have broken down on the track (GW, Fleet Indian and the Phipps filly in the Distaff) [and I think they actually lost one at Belmont in 05], yet I've watched the last couple Dubai World Cup day series of races and don't think I've even noticed a horse being pulled up... Is this a product of the lack of drugs, better surface, luck or some product of all three...

Allah.

You are CORRECT SIR... Yes...

depend to much on drugs over here

If you look at the card in Dubai, you actually have much better world representation than the Breeders Cup. The BC has slowly lost it's lustre with me the past few years, infact I wouldn't even miss it much if it were to become antiquated in the near future. Especially with the expansion to have it run over 2 days, injuries, retirements, and less world representation it has become a watered down product to me.

It might also be possible that this isn't a large enough sample to come to any sort of meaningful conclusion whatsoever.

To expand on the injury thoery, I have been watching Australian racing for the better part of 4-5 years now and I have rarely seen a horse break down during a race. Infact I can only think of one horse breaking down during the stretch unseating the jockey. Not sure why that is, perhaps turf is more forgiving I don't know? But it always struck me how safe racing was over there.

Agreed...

quote of the day!

Well they don't allow drugs in Australia either. In fact (I think Brock or MyMissStormCat could verify this) I think they test the winning horses for drugs literally right after the race ends. That's why it takes awhile for the offical payouts to come in when you play Australia. Also, horses there seem to run a lot more frequently. They're a lot more fit it seems. If the powers-that-be here would ban drugs... sorry, pipe-dreams...

True, many horses have run 1 week prior to the 2 mile Melbourne Cup prepping in 1 1/2 races stake races. If they did that here, the Trainer would be submitted to supply a specimen for possible drug use...It's amazing how sturdy their horses are over there. First time I noticed that I was blown away and then we have horses running 6 times over a yr and complaining of hard campaigns. Doesn't make sense does it?

horses here are like starting pitchers in MLB these days... are people's physiology that much different that they can't throw on 3 days rest? Teams in the early-mid 90s were still usin 4-man rotations right? Instead of worrying about the strain, pitchers can't build up proper endurance and so they still get hurt all the time. Horses would build up stamina and endurance and better strength if they ran more too. But the common denominator between horses and starting pitchers, owners have too much $$$ at stake to "risk it" lol.

But, I'll pose this question. Darley and Godolphin have big operations in Australia too right? Do their horses run more frequently there than they do here?

a study a few years ago did say that turf showed to be kinder, less breakdowns/injuries then dirt.

as for aussie horses, no bleeders allowed. no lasix, a horse who bleeds twice is thru. i think those rules follow thru to the breeding shed as well.

but keep in mind that many north american and european horses shuttle to australia, so it's the same bloodlines we have here. makes you wonder, doesn't it?

they've cornered the market. and next year they are raising the purses. and watch for the next 2 BC's being in california. thats a brain storm! the breeders cup is a national championship, what these guys in dubai have created is a world championship.as for racing , i've seen horses break down everywhere except dubai. i'm sure some have its part of racing. every athlete takes a chance, that goes for humans as well.

The Aussie horses work hard but they are rested well when they need it. They are trained at centers and "yards" and many gethours of turn out time daily, while in training. Many G1 horses prep for important races 5 to 7 days out. The big final prep for the 2 mile Melbourne Cup is indeed a 12f event less than a week before.

In Germany, you cannot stand a stallion who EVER raced on Lasix. That is why Schirocco who won the BC a few years back didn't use it.

I tend to think that US horses are coddled too much also. Back in the day horses trained harder and stayed sounder.

they are way behind the curve they haven't segregated their races
and made it a two day event

btw...

I hate the way they did the post parades

they are about to go off and they finally show you the horses. What if you need to narrow the field and you look up that 1 of the horses you are on the fence with - looks a total wreck.

i think instead of the bc watering down the card by adding so many races and a second day, they should have bumped up the purses on the classic and the turf race. and then they should pay for the top horses' trips out to it. actually, there are several purses that should be adjusted, removing some money from a few, and add to the more important ones.

A couple of years ago, the winner of the Beverly D at AP ran in a 9-10F race the week before at 'toga.... tossed her due to that and the horse burned me bigtime. Angara cost me the pick 4 that day.

The thought that bloodlines in the US are the same is not exactly correct. While in recent years there have been more American bloodlines imported into Australia the vast majority of the mares contain very little relation to American mares. Northern Dancer blood is incredibly infused there but mainly through European connections. One very prominent name that is found everywhere in American pedigrees and hardly anywhere in Austalian ones is Storm Cat. The full effects of the shuttle stallions will take many years to judge.

The fact that all racing is done on turf and much of it at sprint distances is something that would make it much easier to run back on short rest as opposed to dirt racing and training. It has been my experience that horses come back much fresher in general after turf sprints than any other type of race.

The racing card at Dubai is of much greater all around quality than the Breeders Cup. There are many horses in the BC that are not much more than allowances horses. I would have to think that George Washington's breakdown would be a stretch to blame on drugs.

Everybody tells me that we train our horses too soft but Allen Jerkens who is about the only trainer left from the older generation tells me that he had to lighten his training schedules because the horses simply werent holding up.

I don't agree at all as far as the dirt races are concerned.

And as far as the turf races go - we tend to get the top few horses from Europe in most years...while the Dubai World Cup comes at a time when Europe's best are on the sidelines.

If you look at this years World Cup - it was basically a showcase for South African turf horses and American dirt horses.

The only reason America doesn't own the UAE Derby is because none of our decent 3yo's go there...unless it's a case like with Discreet Cat or Express Tour and Street Cry where they are Godolphin owned runners who were American 2yo's.

I really don't know the answer but I would not be surprised if the drug issue does have something to do with it. Over here, we are constantly running horses on drugs so many problems are masked that come out from time to time. Seems like in a lot of other places, the horses that NEED the drugs to run are sent here and the ones that don't stay home so when we get a day like the World Cup, the majority of the horses (the non-Americans) are pretty healthy horses and less likely to break down.

There was an horrific breakdown either on Melbourne Cup Day or the day before, as bad as you would see this side of Go For Wand.

I think running against the Southern Hemisphere 3 year olds puts the US 3 year olds at a significant disadvantage. I would hesitate to send a good 3 year old over at this time of year even though you can't argue with the money.

but many of the euros, who have shuttled there for years, are descendants of north american stallions. but then again, the same could be said for ours, in that for years we went to europe to freshen our bloodlines. i don't think the breed in general is very divergent, since all horses feed back to only three foundation sires-unlike lipizzaners for instance, with six.

i think that the reason behind more sturdy horses overseas is the predominance of turf racing-as many have noted, turf racing is kinder to a horse. i would also think training would have something to do with it as well, with many euros taking their horses for longer rides over undulating countryside, not just jogging about on a dirt track every day. we have to deal with what we have here, but i don't think that shouting 'drugs' is the answer. especially when so many from overseas rush to the vet as soon as their charges land here.

The fields are more accomplished through and through with the possible exception of the classic versus the World Cup but many of the WC participants arent necessarily dirt horses but that doesnt mean they arent quality.

Yeah 300 years ago. There are strains that have developed independently of especially in a isolated place like Australia. Look up the pedigree pages at a sale like Magic Millions and look at the dams bloodlines. It is almost strictly turf or European influenced. There isnt nearly the amount of Mr. P or Storm Cat blood that is found in American, dirt pedigrees.

we used to have breeders that would go overseas to find top stock that would fit here, improve the breed and freshen it-can't help but wonder if that would help us out a bit. and who would be willing to do that?


also, i believe most of the north american horses trace back to only one of those foundation sires-i wonder if the aussies/euros trace back to another, or an influence of all three?

Some of our moderate sprinters like Our New Recruit and Kelly's Landing have taken down the Sprint over there. And we win that race every year.

The Breeders Cup Classic and BC Sprint are obviously vastly superior races to there two versions from a depth standpoint.

Our turf horses always tank over there - but I'm still not sure that there is that much more depth in races like the Duty Free and Golden Shaheen than your par running of the BC Mile or BC Turf.

It is an entirely different world now in terms of breeding. The one positive sign that i have seen concerning synthetic surfaces is breeders willingness to open their minds to a 'turf' sire or a horse with turf breeding due to the theory that turf horses handle those surfaces. I know quite a few breeders that have booked good mares to turf sires that would have probably not done that in the past. I suppose the influx of foreign buying power due to currency values at the yearling sales probably is a factor also but most of the talk at least is about further acceptance of a grassy pedigree and being able to market and sell them.

I'm sure there are breakdowns everywhere, if my memory is correct that might even be the breakdown that I remember as well if it was in 2007. My perception of watching these races is it just doesn't happen as often as in racing in North America. Racing in Hong Kong is very similar, I have been watching racing there for pretty much the same time, horses are well taken care of over there where drugs are very much looked down upon with a zero tolerance rule.