PokerStars
 

anyone playing on PokerStars? I was but today I decided that there are way too many suckouts. Sure, there are bad beats here and there. Aces get cracked often. But they intentionally set you up time and again. The one that killed it for me today was pocket Qs. The flop was 10 10 7. No over cards but I could be beat. I bet, he raises, I call. The turn card is a Queen. Sweet Fullhouse Queens over 10s. I bet he raises I re-raise he puts me all in.
cards are turned up. I was up against pockets Aces. Wow he has to be upset getting Aces cracked. I got him... or so I thought. Ace comes on the river. I'm done. Just over the top with 2nd best hands. if you are ahead at the flop or turn card you won't be on the river. This isn't luck this is by design.
my idea for a new PokerStars t-shirt "I got sucked out at PokerStars"

I know that there is no way to prove it, but when you first deposit money you get all kinds of good cards and you are the one sucking out on people. Everyone I speak to , says they have always did well when they first opened their accounts. Then after a week they say that they get the worse beats ever on the site. I just used to play those small sit and go's. I did ok for a while and actually made some money. Nothing big. After a while I just got tired of it. I would rather play the ponies than sit there and play cards.

Yes, it's not like you have top two pair and someone beats you with a set because they have pocket 4s and there is a 4 on the turn. (saw that often)It is the runner runner with the only 2 cards in the entire deck that can beat you. You will have 6 or more outs they only have one and they get it. I was almost convinced they were poker-bots. No one in their right mind would call some of the bets unless they knew what the cards were going to be. I guess if you can afford to play long enough you would recognize it. But seriously I have seen 4 of a kind several times and I got a straight flush on the flop once. Ofcourse I made a minimum bet after the turn and everyone folded.

I've seen some of the stars playing. They play against the same people on a couple tables. it's a little suspect. Tried cashing out but supposedly waiting on my last deposit to clear before they will allow me to cashout.

Maybe we need to get a blog started

http://www.igotsuckedoutatpokerstars.blogspot.com

I forgot about those, you try to slow play a monster and someone cracks you on the river. If you have the nuts, make the mininum bet people are running from you like you have the plauge! Have to admit, I have never thought about poker bots, but it wouldn't suprise me at all.

this conversation is an example of why i long ago blocked all chat when i play.

between table coaches and "this site is fixed", there really isn't much worth reading.

the problem i'm hearing expressed is an externalization of an internal problem. you may have completely mastered the skill portion of the game (or not) but completely lack the ability to deal with bad luck. and bad luck is going to happen to anyone who gambles, no matter their skill.

good and bad runs are part of the game. it's human nature that you ascribe the good runs to a little luck and a lot of skill. but the bad runs seem so impossibly inexplicable that there must be some outside force involved. so you pull out a talisman. or pray. or convince yourself the site is fixed.

you haven't mastered the luck.

the house rakes the same amount on these websites. whether they control the fall of cards or leave it random. why would they risk everything for nothing?

you haven't mastered the luck. it's you. you had a bad run. play long enough and you'll have a worse one. it's isn't that you angered god. it isn't that you forgot to wear green. it isn't a cheat. your perception is wrong.

if you think i'm wrong, you should not be playing.

it's the probablities. In horse racing ,what are the probabilities that there will be 3 consecutive races where the longest shot on the board wins? What is the probability that they will all be over 50-1.

That is what I see at Poker Stars. Too often I have seen 4 of a kind. Too often the dominate hand is beat. You'll never see this in an actual game. My perceptions are reality.

The odds that my Qs were up against a bigger pocket pair are 0.009% and to be ahead with a full house and then lose with only 1 of the 2 aces left in the deck is like 0.00001%

the odds of seeing 3 of kind on the flop (community cards) is 459 to 1 yet Poker Stars does it with regularity.

Not playing PokerStars anymore. Just waiting to get my money out and never go back. It isn't an isolated incident. You are the first one that has ever said anything in their defense. I am not alone on the "luck" Yes, the house take is the same unless the house is playing. I don't believe they are but the program is completely screwed up.

I would have to agree with god here. Why would they care who win or loses?

why would they care, because if their bots are winning, they dont have to pay out the purses.... Thats why online websites have always been accused of using bots or people that have access to the software who can see all the cards. When you go into a casino, you dont mind if the house employs players to try to clean up at the tables, at least they have no advantage other then their own personal skills. If your playing someone who knows what everyone has and what the cards are going to be.... you can't win.

i'm not defending any particular website. i'm defending rational thought.

the odds of 3 races in a row being won by 50-1 shots is 75,000-1 assuming none of the horses are overlays/underlays and ignoring takeout.

the odds you lost that last hand (after being dominated pre-flop, after the flop, and then hitting a 2 outer on the turn) was 2/45 or about 22.5-1. there were 2 aces of the 45 unknown cards in that scenario.

the odds you would have hit your 2 outer on the turn were exactly 23-1 (2 cards out of 46). the odds that you hit your 2 outer and then he hit his 2 outer are 23-1 x 22.5-1 or 517.5-1.

somewhat less than 75,000-1.

the odds that pokerstars is gaming their softwear to create these situations is where i call on you to think hard about your perception.

if they are, they lost you and everyone else who has noticed this as customers generating rake for them.

rummaging around in our own basements to find the broken pipes leaking water that are causing us to think the river flooded is never any fun. it's hard ugly work.

but it pays off. not just in poker.

I played on full tilt a lot, didn't make any money but lost interest in it. I've been playing live action hold em a lot lately, where the rake goes towards charity and have not only enjoyed playing but have been doing well. They have tournaments but I stick to the cash game, which is 1-2 no limit max buy in of $200. I've noticed I do much better playing live rather than online, so that is what I will stick to.

"why would they care, because if their bots are winning, they dont have to pay out the purses...."

rock climbers rate climbs on 2 scales. difficulty and exposure. difficulty doesn't need to be explained. exposure is the rating of what happens to you if you fall. a low exposure is you skin your knee on some granite. a high exposure is your femur introduces itself to your lungs.

the websites make their nut on churn, same as the racetracks. what you are suggesting is they are risking everything (hello lung! hello femur!) to make a marginally higher return. would you do that if you were scraping $0.50-$3.00 off hundreds of tables every few minutes?

"When you go into a casino, you dont mind if the house employs players to try to clean up at the tables, at least they have no advantage other then their own personal skills."

live casino's don't employ people to clean up at the tables. they pay players to start games or fill out short tables. the casino gets no part of the prop's winnings and are not responsible for any part of what they lose. they pay an hourly wage same as they do to dealers/chip runner's/food and beverage service. their calculation is more players = more rake. and prop's help fill out short tables. if you're one of those players you have to be willing to be told what game and what limit you're to sit at. and you get up and leave as soon as they need to fill another game. regardless of how juicy the table you just started might be. it's a f'in grind.

"If your playing someone who knows what everyone has and what the cards are going to be.... you can't win."

so if you lost this is a very convienent excuse to not look at the holes in your own boat.

It goes back to that perception thing. I do not think that they have poker bots, but I am not 100% sure. After a couple of crazy beats, you start to think. And you are right, why would they jepordize that rake that they make on every hand. But on the other hand, how could you prove that they had the bots? So why only make .30-3.00 a hand when you can occasionally take down any sort of pot every couple of hands?

Normally I'd totally agree with you, but some of the ways I've been snapped off on that site as well, I wonder too... I play at Canterbury Park, where they have limit hold 'em and everyone calls you with everything. I also play in a crazy home game where people call you with everything (the home game is NL). In both the Canterbury and home-games, I've been snapped off pretty bad. BUT NOTHING LIKE POKER STARS. Ever since that internet gambling legislation came down, I haven't invested anymore $$$$ in it. But I'm just sayin...

so one more customer they've lost who could be building their rake.

does anyone else see the madness in this?

everyone is abandoning these websites because they can't win. obviously that's because the sites are fixed. the alternative is unthinkable.

i guess the theory is the on line poker industry will maximize their profit when the have just 1 player left who has all the money and no one to play against.

God, we aren't talking about small time rake games,I'm talking about high end games and tourneys. I'll confess I've never actually played at pokerstars for money... but their weekly sunday tournament consistently gives top prize of over 115K. If they randomly created bots or even used players that had access to the software, wouldn't that be an advantage to them.

Secondly, How would anyone ever know they were doing it.... I'm sure they have a great random number generator thats gets tested and certified, but anyone with adminstrator privileges would be able to see everyones hand. The company has the potential to skim a good deal of money off the top with very little "exposure" as you call it.

Of course saying the game is rigged is an easy excuse because you can't prove otherwise. I'm not stating that is or is not rigged, but the possibility of it is far more likely then you think.

I agree with you, but I honestly doubt people really care. If you really think about it, there is an infinite amount of screen names that someone could use and if crafty enough, who knows what damage could be done.

To give you an example of hilariousness, it has become a Sunday ritual that 4 of my friends play in those $10+$1 NL Holdem KO tourneys on Full Tilt. All four of them are in the same room, on the same wireless internet. Many times they have sat at the same table, pretty comedy

I love the knockout tournaments on full tilt, and me and my brother actually both sign up and play in the same tournament. We have been at the same table a few times and we are in the same room playing or talking on the phone. It obviously won't let us sit down together at a cash table, but I guess nothing they can do in the tournaments.

Why can't you sit at the same cash table?

Same last name and location would be my guess. We have tried, but it will not allow us to.

Very interesting, good to know also

My pokerstars name is TrentCole1 if anyone is interested in playing. Usually play daily from 9-10 or 10-11 PM. NOt tonight though, as I'm heading east on the AC expressway to play a little cash game and join the midnight madness tournament again. Came in 11th out of 123 last night, but only the top 9 cashed. I'd rather lose in the first hour than last until 4:30 for squadoosh. I was heated, and rightfully so. Had this drunk know nothing dominated, as he pushed with A 2 offsuit, I had A 10 suited. Flop came 2 5 9, I knew I was dunzo.
It really felt good that all the players at my table came over to me to shake my hand, telling me it was a bad beat. I was on top of my game last night, more than I've ever been. It was nice to see the Taj regulars realize that.
Hence, another try tonight, lol....
TAJ + BOrgata = East Coast Poker Mecca

i'm checking with my sources but this may be clear evidence the cards are being manipulated where you play.

if you ever have another bad beat that should be proof enough.

My opinion on online poker being rigged for big pots and crazy results is mixed. Obviously it is very possible, and I think one has to realize that you see more hands per hour online then live (my guess is 5-7 times more). When I am watching my friends I should start keeping track of how many hands they play and how many 'runner-runner' turn outs there are. I think all poker players can handle getting rivered when the outs are available, but the runner runner result is what gets people pretty pissed. They happen but not with the percieved reality online

I've been in very few "runner, runner" incidents in person.
Online, different bowl of wax.

And I definitely agree with you about players accepting the river beats when facing multiple outs. Phil Hellmuth being the exception.

The TV guys are a bunch of garbage, they should be getting paid as actors. When I played in one of the events last year ($1500 NL Holdem), some of them were professionals, some were jerkoffs and some were actors.

I sat and played with Young Phan(http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/pl...gecolor=FFFFFF) and bluffed the living **** out of him.

It was a great experience and I am trying to figure out a way to sit again because if you hit two hands early, you can COAST. I lasted 8 hours and I took a REAL bad beat when I had TT and another had JJ, I overplayed them pretty bad

I believe your odds are too simplistic. The true odds are greater because you are forgetting that nearly half the decks was being delt out to the other 8 or 9 players. I may have failed to mention that this time, it was a tournament. I believe there are intentional 2nd best hand delt to eliminate players. I have quit playing online. The bad beats were just way over the top.

Maybe PokerStars' figures for ever person that hates over the top bad beats, there are 2 others that love it. My friend has done very well at Poker Stars but decided he can't stand the bad beats any more.

He was in a tournament that pays down 3 places. They are down to 4 players. I've already explained that the true odds that someone will have a higher pocket pair is .009% Less than 1 percent (when you have Queens). So what are the odds that you are dealt pocket Aces another player is dealt pocket Kings and another is dealt pockets 10s? (I haven't taken the time to look this one up.) Friend had the pocket Aces didn't want to slow play and went all in. He got two callers the pocket Kings and the pocket 10s. The odds that someone will get a set is pretty good but the odds that everyone has a pocket pair is ridiculous. (ofcourse the guy with the 10s won.) I know that bad beats are part of the game but the frequency and the amount of improbable hands are not part of the game. They are part of a program and knowing the program is the only way some people could play their hands the way they play. I've seen where people go "all in" when they need runner runner to win. Going all in on a draw is a bad play that I haven't seen anywhere more often than PokerStars. I can't afford to study the program.

They aren't getting the money from me and 2 of my friends.

"I believe your odds are too simplistic. The true odds are greater because you are forgetting that nearly half the decks was being delt out to the other 8 or 9 players."

2 cards x 9 players (it would actually be 7 players at pokerstars) = 1/2 the deck? your problem may be that you're innumerate.

the folded cards dealt to any player not in the hand are random and unknown, the same as cards remaining in the deck. the odds analysis i did was the standard one you see in any book on poker.

"So what are the odds that you are dealt pocket Aces another player is dealt pocket Kings and another is dealt pockets 10s?"

pretty low in the next hand i play. inevitable if i play long enough.

"I know that bad beats are part of the game but the frequency and the amount of improbable hands are not part of the game."

improbable things should happen in a predictable pattern. gotcha.

"They are part of a program and knowing the program is the only way some people could play their hands the way they play.I've seen where people go "all in" when they need runner runner to win."

or they are bad players that got lucky. that's the tax you pay for sitting at a table with players you can predictably make a profit from.

you may be expecting too much from your bankroll. try lower stakes until you are profitable and then climb the ladder.

you won't find any other website is different. the complaints you make are made by players universally at the sites i've played. maybe the whole industry is a scam. more likely most players are unequipped emotionally to deal with losing bad beats and imprint those more than they do the times they are advantaged as an underdog.

i like online because the rakes are lower and there is no tipping expected (a further drain in live play).

i've had horrendous bad streaks. taking a break is a good idea. after that though, start looking at your game.

10 players total plus 3 burn cards = 23 half of 52 is 26.

I just looked on the internet for the percentages of the odds of over pairs. Anyway - I was playng my FFP while waiting to get my money. Those games always have people going all in on the first hand. Another player commented that this was the 3rd game in a row that pocket Kings won the hand. I witnessed it twice myself. It doesn't seem random.
"Improbable things" were predictable via the program. That is my complaint. I think some were keeping a spreadsheet or had a photographic memory. I recognized some of the hands.

This is a memorable hand. $1/2 table started with $100. Worked up to $1,400 other player with $3,000+ is buying pots left and right. I wanted a confrontation. I don't play anything for what seemed like 10 hands. I'm in the small blind with KQ hearts. He's on the button and raises. I just call. The flop has 2 hearts. I bet he raises. I just call. The turn is a heart. I bet he raises I re-raise heavy. There isn't a pair on the board and I wanted him gone. He re-raises puts me all in. The river card is another heart. (and how do all gambling stories end? in tragedy) You got it. 4 hearts on the board and he had the Ace of hearts. That is all he had. Bad player or someone that knew the program?

you start believing that you should play 8 2 more often than AK <-- extremely overrated IMO. I would rather have J 10.

I have decided to take your advice. I have deleted the software from my machine and don't plan on going back.

Look at this beat
 

Seat 1: ericsheikh (3,095)
Seat 2: Metallos (7,306)
Seat 3: scavsiu8 (5,865)
Seat 4: AmeerH (3,182)
Seat 5: CarrDogg (3,740)
Seat 6: corover1967 (6,370)
Seat 7: Pampooso (1,560)
Seat 8: sandston (435)
Seat 9: KyleFly (1,952)
KyleFly posts the small blind of 50
ericsheikh posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to scavsiu8 [7s 7c]
Metallos folds
scavsiu8 raises to 465
AmeerH folds
scarrs (Observer): i hate pocket 10
CarrDogg calls 465
corover1967 calls 465
Pampooso folds
KyleFly folds
ericsheikh folds
*** FLOP *** [7h 6c 5h]
scavsiu8 checks
CarrDogg bets 1,545
corover1967 has 15 seconds left to act
corover1967 raises to 5,905, and is all in
scavsiu8 calls 5,400, and is all in
CarrDogg calls 1,730, and is all in
corover1967 shows [Ac 9c]
scavsiu8 shows [7s 7c]
CarrDogg shows [Ts Td]
Uncalled bet of 505 returned to corover1967
*** TURN *** [7h 6c 5h] [2c]
*** RIVER *** [7h 6c 5h 2c] [4c]
corover1967 shows a flush, Ace high
scavsiu8 shows three of a kind, Sevens
corover1967 wins the side pot (4,250) with a flush, Ace high
CarrDogg shows a pair of Tens
corover1967 wins the main pot (11,370) with a flush, Ace high
CarrDogg stands up
scavsiu8 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 15,620 Main pot 11,370. Side pot 4,250. | Rake 0
Board: [7h 6c 5h 2c 4c]
Seat 1: ericsheikh (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: Metallos didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: scavsiu8 showed [7s 7c] and lost with three of a kind, Sevens
Seat 4: AmeerH didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: CarrDogg showed [Ts Td] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 6: corover1967 showed [Ac 9c] and won (15,620) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 7: Pampooso (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: sandston is sitting out
Seat 9: KyleFly (small blind) folded before the Flop

well obviously you need to re-evaluate your play. :rolleyes:
ALL IN needing runner runner and gets it. That just Sux doesn't seem appropiate. Is he an idiot that has all the chips or do you think the program has been cracked?

I don't know. He might have been an extremely weak player that was trying to bluff and got slow rolled by me. As I was telling a friend last night, in real life, that play is never made by that guy, but because it is online and an extremely low level of online play, **** like that happens

yes it does happen but it also happens at a higher level of play. I decided I couldn't beat people who are either bad or know the program. Good luck

May the suckout be with you

i'm out.

i can't change anyone's faith nor would i want to.

and that's what this thread wound up being about. you either believe there is a on-line poker business model built on the inevitability of profits raking a high traffic site or you are conspiracy guy.

and i'll stop banging my head against the wall arguing with conspiracy guy.

we're even btw.

Just read through the thread, I miust say I find the thoughts interesting. I've started to play online poker (both for money and for fun) over the last few months.

One thing I have noticed on many of the sites is that the people who bet most hands usually keep getting nice cards. As if the site is saying, the more hands you play the better your cards will get.

Of course, this could be luck, but I've seen it so many times. I played a tournament last week and this one guy must have bet at least 75% of the hands. He never lost the chip lead.

On betfair poker, me and a few friends have commented that whoever has the chip lead after usually continues to get very good cards.

I've been done with a set of Kings on the river. I had pocket kings and put in a fair size bet pre flop. I had two takers. Flop came out 7K2, I was over the moon with that flop, made a substantial bet, first player folded and the next raised me all in. I thought for a while..... I was like "well, he can't be in front" I expected him to have pocket 7s or pocket 2's. I call. Cards come down, he has A7....... so i'm like "wtf".... turn comes down ACE..... hmmmm, I was busy thinking about chances of an ace on the river..... river card also an ACE!! full house aces over sevens beating my set of kings.

This guy either had no clue what he was doing or knew he would get paid off in the end. It was like he was the one with the big hand at the flop.

I've been beaten after betting flops going all in with others on the same website where they have needed both cards to make a flush or stragitht.It has happened three or four times now.

It's a bit more than lucky for their point of view.

What about the runner/runner that beat me last week when I was in the final 3?? I think you got more pissed than me.

by the way....if anyone plays on Full Tilt....I am SeaScape

I have a 5000.00 T shirt from Poker Stars.