Should JCGC return to 16F ?
 

Because of the BC initiative for a "marathon" division this is the perfect year to return the Jockey Club Gold Cup to 16F, as it used to be. I surmise this move could very well place the JCGC back to elite status. Group Plan was the last to win at that distance, 1975 in 3:23.20. Trained by The Chief.

Among many notables to win the JCGC at that distance, 1921 - 1975, was Kelso, winning a mind boggling 5 in a row from 1960-1964. He set the race record in 1964 at 3:19.20... Forego won in 1974 in 3:21.20.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jockey_Club_Gold_Cup

how about 24 furlongs?

OOOOOOOOO

I honestly don't care what distance the race is run at, but the suggestion that the people in charge of a race with the history and importance of the JCGC should do ANYTHING differently just because the Breeders' Cup added some stupid new 12f race is completely insane and demonstrates the heart of the entire problem.
This sport SHOULD NOT revolve around this stupid day....or two days....or a month and half....or however long they decide to make this hideous event.

Zero interest watching a race that last for almost 3 1/2 minutes. If Im losing, I want it to be quick and painless.

I'd like to see it at 1 1/2 miles.

I did some searching, but cannot find any of the news reports regarding the announcement when they shortened it up. Pre-internet :D

I thought the reasoning was due "realities of the American racing game" at the time. Anybody else out there recall why it was shortened?

Think if they ran a 16 furlong race over the surface used in the last Del Mar meet. The race would take ten minutes and the smart jocks would have their horses literally walking the first mile.

A new standard for idiotic posting has been set.

Of course, Sumitas in all likelihood was just eclipsing a previous record of his.

Never. You rule, you old wind bag.

That's like asking if you should stop making stupid threads.

This is hilarious, Kev... :D

Thanks Andrew....right to the point, right to the heart of the matter...I'm serious when I say your way with words makes me lol...

The problem with that is that the people in charge of the race already have done something different with the race a few times. It was a 16f race. They dropped it to 12f. It was a 12f race and they dropped it to 10f. While I can't say with absolute certainty that the drop to 10f was in order to make it a better prep for the BC, I'm sure that played a part in it. So I would have to say that it's not too insane to suggest that they do anything because of the BC when they've shown already that they will.

Except that the answers to the two questions are obviously different.

Negatory. I find his threads highly entertaining.

They don't need a longer race at all. If you want to run those, send them off to Europe because the current landscape of American thoroughbred racing means a race of that length has no importance. The industry is driven by breeding and there is no demand for a marathon winner. I've been saying for years that the Belmont is the most irrelevant G1 we have unless someone is going for the Triple Crown. In year's with no TC bid, I can do without.

Why not get Rolex to sponser the 24 hours of Churchill ? The Jockeys could keep changing after every 1 hour.:rolleyes:

Two things that should be quick and painless:

* Losing

* Bad sex

am i the only one that thought he was making a joke at the expense of the new bc marathon?

a modest proposal?

i thought there was no such thing as bad sex. i mean, it's still sex. and sex is a good thing, right??

I never thought I'd see a thread discussing sex and the alleged merits of 2 mile dirt races.....

The JC Gold Cup was shortened to 12f when the race was moved from Aqueduct to Belmont. At Aqueduct, a 9f oval, they could start at the 7f start and have a nice long run to the turn. At Belmont, running at 16f would required starting on the turn, which the track people thought the horsemen wouldn't like. (In those days, Belmont had a chute long enough for 10f races to start on the straight. It crossed the training track.)

Moving the JCGC to Belmont predated the BC and was part of the process by which Aqueduct was changed from having spring, summer, and fall meetings to having one long meet from late fall to spring. In those days, the Dwyer H was its 'Brooklyn Derby' at 10f, and the Brooklyn H took place in Brooklyn, both held in July. I would argue that many of the problems with NY racing date from the decision to turn a major racing venue, home of championship races like the JCGC and Ladies H, into a cheap winter racetrack. That and the way the OTB was originally constituted.

That's revisionist history. The Jockey Club Gold Cup was run at 2 miles and at Belmont from 1921 to 1957, as well as 1962, 1968 and 1975. As for the Brooklyn, I don't have all the stats but it was surely run at 1 1/4 at Belmont when Forego won it two days before the Ruffian-Foolish Pleasure match race. Its lengthening the following year accomplished two things, one is that after the match race they decided to no longer use the chute and also because it seemed a good fit for the then popular Handicap Triple Crown which was now the mile of the Met Mile, the 1 1/4 of the Suburban and the 1 1/2 of the Brooklyn.

As for your comments that they turned Aqueduct into a " cheap winter racetrack ".....well that's just an inaccurate and cheap shot. The economics of winter racing seem to allude you from your Ivory Tower, and while I'm all for some of the pageantry of the sport, those days are basically gone and horse racing is a business. The survival of many players ( owners and trainers ) in NY hinges upon the winter months and because Aqueduct, and not Belmont, is a winterized racetrack that is where the racing must take place. The demise of the Ladies Handicap is not because the race takes place at Aqueduct, it is almost solely due to the BC, as the BC became a virtual conclusion to most horses' seasons and the fields for this once prestigeous race dwindled in quality and quantity.....much like many races around the land.

The Vosburgh is another great race, and for many considered the most important and definitive sprint in the land at one time, that was altered in NY. As you must know, many of its runnings took place late in the season and at Aqueduct, but always at 7F. However, the BC began to minimize it from it's very inception and finally NYRA was forced to move it permanently to Belmont so that it could be run before the BC and eventually to 6F in order for it to continue to be used as an important race, though of course now merely as a prep for the BC. In this case at least NYRA was able to salvage this race. Had they left it at Aqueduct, and 7F, it may well have floundered much like the Ladies handicap....not because of Aqueduct being a " winter racetrack " but because of the BC and timing. It should also be noted that NYRA made up for this change by creating perhaps the best new race in the country....the NYRA ( now Cigar ) Mile. It's nice to see that the BC has now savaged that great race as well. At least it took them 20 years.

Outer or inner, Aqueduct during Nov-Dec is by far the best racing east of LA and, aside from the number of G I's and grass racing, arguably better than SoCal. Jan-Mar is the dead of winter but there are still always a lot of pretty interesting small stakes races on the inner.

If the JCGC were to go to 2 miles, the likely favorite will be Al Attal. My money will be on Hidalgo, asuming Viggo can make weight.

very funny:D

Are you referring to the son of Tagula ?

I disagree. IMO the Tropical meet at Calder (especially December) is much better racing than Aqueduct. Outside of the T-Giving weekend racing at the Big A it is unwatchable NYB. There are 16 stakes race at Tropical during the month of December and over 1/2 of them are graded. 8 months of the year I spend the majority of my handicapping $ betting New York racing at the expense of my local Florida track, but not December that is for sure. I will go so far as to take Calder in December racing over Gulfstream January any day of the week.

You're right as far as Stakes racing in December being better at Calder. It is better.

Whether or not its better in November than Churchill is debatable. A lot of the better NY barns have started to send horses south.

As for December, I agree with the point about Calder being better quality. Let's face it, once the NYRA meet heads to the inner dirt, the quality level is much closer to Turfway or Hawthorne than it is Belmont.

And if we bring the Fair Grounds into the picture, I think its pretty close.