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-   -   Turfway - Poly (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16576)

whodey17 09-06-2007 07:09 PM
Turfway - Poly
 
I went to opening night last night and all I have to say is that this surface is worse now then it was last meet. I was encouraged by Poly at first, but now I am really starting to sour. It seems that Cushion is BY FAR better.

Coach Pants 09-06-2007 07:25 PM
Outside of the two breakdowns, Tapeta has been fantastic.

JJP 09-06-2007 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillow Pants
Outside of the two breakdowns, Tapeta has been fantastic.
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

Coach Pants 09-06-2007 11:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJP
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?
I hated it. I kept having to pass my kleenex to you.

The Bid 09-06-2007 11:37 PM
They have had months to come up with new excuses, lets see what they say when it starts freezing AGAIN

dalakhani 09-07-2007 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodey17
I went to opening night last night and all I have to say is that this surface is worse now then it was last meet. I was encouraged by Poly at first, but now I am really starting to sour. It seems that Cushion is BY FAR better.
What was it about the surface that you didnt like? Were you on it? Did you not like the way the races were playing out?

I am not a big poly proponent. I hated it last year but im starting to get use to it now. I do enjoy the fact that the fields are more full thus you get better value on the horses that you bet.

I played the card last night and it was abundantly clear that you pretty much had to throw out speed.

cmorioles 09-07-2007 09:57 AM
This is from a very recent DRF article about Turfway:

Quote:
In fact, after having trouble with the surface "balling up" in horses' hooves last winter during freezing weather, Turfway decided recently to infuse the surface with an oil-based wax that Elliston said "addresses the stickiness issue." Although Turfway did not have problems with Polytrack at the 2005 or 2006 fall meets, when weather is not a major factor, "we wanted to go ahead and do this and see how it went," said Elliston.

The oil-based wax was tilled into the track over the course of several days, without disrupting training, about three weeks ago, said Elliston. The main ingredients of Polytrack include carpet fibers, recycled rubber bits, silica-coated sand, and polymer-based wax.

"The horsemen keep saying the surface is dynamite," said Elliston.
I imagine the horsemen that love the surface are those with a barn full of plodders. I think I'll stick to betting dirt (and turf) while these guys continue to tinker around with the surface at these wax tracks.

sumitas 09-07-2007 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
What was it about the surface that you didnt like? Were you on it? Did you not like the way the races were playing out?

I am not a big poly proponent. I hated it last year but im starting to get use to it now. I do enjoy the fact that the fields are more full thus you get better value on the horses that you bet.

I played the card last night and it was abundantly clear that you pretty much had to throw out speed.
It's nice to see a lot of horses running over a kinder surface.

cmorioles 09-07-2007 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitas
It's nice to see a lot of clydesdales plodding over a kinder surface.
FTFY.

sumitas 09-07-2007 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles
FTFY.
Clydesdales bring the beer so don't knock them.

whodey17 09-07-2007 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
What was it about the surface that you didnt like? Were you on it? Did you not like the way the races were playing out?

I am not a big poly proponent. I hated it last year but im starting to get use to it now. I do enjoy the fact that the fields are more full thus you get better value on the horses that you bet.

I played the card last night and it was abundantly clear that you pretty much had to throw out speed.
Yes, I was on the track on Wednesday night. I also was on the track when they first installed Poly and the time between then and now. Although the track has been leveled, it is clear that the surface on Wednesday does not "break-up" as well as it did when it was first installed. The track is also slippery. What I mean by that is that it is hard for a horse to get a good grip on the surface. Big clumps of Poly, as well as dust, are now being kicked up by horses. I also dont think it has been playing as fair as it once did.

dalakhani 09-07-2007 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodey17
Yes, I was on the track on Wednesday night. I also was on the track when they first installed Poly and the time between then and now. Although the track has been leveled, it is clear that the surface on Wednesday does not "break-up" as well as it did when it was first installed. The track is also slippery. What I mean by that is that it is hard for a horse to get a good grip on the surface. Big clumps of Poly, as well as dust, are now being kicked up by horses. I also dont think it has been playing as fair as it once did.
I appreciate the feedback. I don't know much about Poly outside of what I have read and watched on TV. I have not been to a track that had poly yet.

I would agree with the part about it playing fair. It seems like you have to have a truly superior animal in order to win on the lead.

Bobby Fischer 09-07-2007 01:47 PM
My "book" on it last meet was that the kickback was very bad and that the best place to be was near the lead and to the outside. It wasn't exactly speed favoring(well it was compared with Kee,Arl,Del Mar), but forwardly placed horses did well in routes, and also benefited from staying out of the cloud.
Now it sounds like they tinkered with the surface. Adding the oil-wax. Worth watching and observing for a while. Maybe this dampens speed. Have to observe the kickback as well.

Ky Cup is a pretty big race.

Danzig 09-07-2007 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitas
It's nice to see a lot of horses running over a kinder surface.
but i read recently that supposedly there have been a lot more soft tissue injuries related to the poly surfaces.

anyone know if this is actually the case? trading one type of injury for another isn't a move in the right direction.

sumitas 09-07-2007 10:09 PM
Trading injuries is not the goal, for sure. What is needed is quantifiable data and toward that end, breakdowns are way down at every track I believe.

Have a great weekend.:D

Danzig 09-07-2007 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitas
Trading injuries is not the goal, for sure. What is needed is quantifiable data and toward that end, breakdowns are way down at every track I believe.

Have a great weekend.:D
getting rid of breakdowns is obviously good, but not good for a horse who suffers an injury of another sort. of course, generally fans in attendance don't ever hear about those....keeps up the image of safety.

ELA 09-07-2007 10:54 PM
As far as "hard" data, quantifiable, I think that will be slow to come. Plus, getting data on soft-tissue injuries is going to be tough, and to be able to attribute these injuries to the poly/synthetic/etc. surface is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible.

Any data on the new surfaces are going to come from a much smaller sampling and as such might be inconclusive. I am all for reducing breakdowns. I think we are seeing different "problems" (so called problems) at different tracks across the country. I still haven't seen the hard, quantifiable data where most (percentage) trainers dislike these surfaces. Sure, there are very vocal voices of displeasure, dislike, etc., but I am not sure if that is reflective of the majority or what size group.

Kickback, weather, moisture or lack thereof, and several other issues need, and will, be addressed. It's still very new, and there will be a lifecycle to it.

Eric

JJP 09-07-2007 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani

I would agree with the part about it playing fair. It seems like you have to have a truly superior animal in order to win on the lead.
That doesn't sound like a fair track to me; it sounds like a speed-killing track, which is not a fair track.

Scav 09-07-2007 11:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJP
That doesn't sound like a fair track to me; it sounds like a speed-killing track, which is not a fair track.
Arlington is the fairest synethic out there. Surprising that Arlington could do something right. :)

Riot 09-08-2007 01:31 AM
Quote:
As far as "hard" data, quantifiable, I think that will be slow to come. Plus, getting data on soft-tissue injuries is going to be tough, and to be able to attribute these injuries to the poly/synthetic/etc. surface is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible.
The current track study being conducted will give exactly that type of information.

disrespectnfool 09-08-2007 01:58 AM
oh poly,poly
saving the horses for sure
killing bettors more

whodey17 09-08-2007 11:30 AM
The surface at Turfway is so forgiving that it is hard to detect soft tissue injuries in your horses. So a horse could train and race for weeks before the soft tissue injury is detected. By then the injury is far worse than it was in the beginning and there is not much you can do about it but give your horse more time off. Last year one of our horses was training beautifully. We sent him down to Mountaineer to race and the jockey was warming the horse up and then decided that he wasnt going to ride the horse because the horse wasnt "acting right." It turned out that the horse had a bruise on his foot that looked like it was 2 to 3 weeks old than we had no idea about.

Riot 09-08-2007 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disrespectnfool
oh poly,poly
saving the horses for sure
killing bettors more
I"ll take the horses over the bettors any day.

The different historical dirt tracks (and turf tracks) have long had individual characteristics known by handicappers. Some known for being deep and tiring (and more predisposing to things like muscle pulls and strains, back pain, etc); some hard, concrete-like (more predisposing to bone injury/catastrophic breakdown, bruises). Some have always favored stalkers/closers, some are well-known front-end-winning speed highways. That's nothing new, and it's always been a part of handicapping.

So the extreme fuss over the various synthetic surfaces still surprises me. It's just another surface, guys. It's no more "chaotic" than the last two weeks of Saratoga were, to my eyes.

whodey17 09-08-2007 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
I"ll take the horses over the bettors any day.

The different historical dirt tracks (and turf tracks) have long had individual characteristics known by handicappers. Some known for being deep and tiring (and more predisposing to things like muscle pulls and strains, back pain, etc); some hard, concrete-like (more predisposing to bone injury/catastrophic breakdown, bruises). Some have always favored stalkers/closers, some are well-known front-end-winning speed highways. That's nothing new, and it's always been a part of handicapping.

So the extreme fuss over the various synthetic surfaces still surprises me. It's just another surface, guys. It's no more "chaotic" than the last two weeks of Saratoga were, to my eyes.
I agree with that you are saying. I would just like to see the surface at Turfway be a little better. I think it is worse now than it was at the beginning of Poly at Turfway.

Riot 09-08-2007 12:09 PM
I think all handicappers want is some degree of predictability that they can utilize.

That has always taken some time from opening day of a meet (and each morning with some meets) for historical tracks, and it will take time for the synthetics to settle in, too.

ELA 09-08-2007 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
The current track study being conducted will give exactly that type of information.
For the reasons I mentioned, and others, do you really think this information is going to be conclusive. One meet? One year? Without the variables, changes that can and weren't made in the track surface. I agree with you that the information is needed. I am just concerned that too many people are too hesitant to start making changes, tweaking, etc.

I would have liked to see track management have people assessing, reviewing, and being a lot more proactive once these tracks were installed. I don't like hearing track management say "We aren't making any changes whatsoever until the meet is over" or something to that effect.

Eric

Riot 09-08-2007 01:19 PM
Quote:
For the reasons I mentioned, and others, do you really think this information is going to be conclusive. One meet? One year?
I think so, ELA, because it will be an ongoing, continuous thing over the years, so enough data will be accumulated to give some definitive answers and show some true trends. I agree with you that "one track, one year" type of thing wouldn't give us good answers.

What I am talking about is Dr. Mary Scollay's track injury reporting system that started in 2007. Most tracks are participating, it will independently quantify the type of injury, outcome, weather, track surface, age/type/condition horse, field size, veterinary care, etc. (lots of variables). One early article on it is here in The Blood-Horse, there are more recent if you search for them:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleind...e.asp?id=39138

Quote:
I would have liked to see track management have people assessing, reviewing, and being a lot more proactive once these tracks were installed. I don't like hearing track management say "We aren't making any changes whatsoever until the meet is over" or something to that effect.
I hear you. But I see their side, in that if I have a new product I purchased, and the manufacturer is telling me, based upon their previous experience with other installations, it's best to let things settle down to see what's really there, THEN tweek, I'd suspect I'd go with that recommendation, too.

sumitas 09-08-2007 01:59 PM
Great point and I respect the dedication of those submitting and compiling the data. Thanks to all and keep up the good work.

ELA 09-08-2007 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
I think so, ELA, because it will be an ongoing, continuous thing over the years, so enough data will be accumulated to give some definitive answers and show some true trends. I agree with you that "one track, one year" type of thing wouldn't give us good answers.

What I am talking about is Dr. Mary Scollay's track injury reporting system that started in 2007. Most tracks are participating, it will independently quantify the type of injury, outcome, weather, track surface, age/type/condition horse, field size, veterinary care, etc. (lots of variables). One early article on it is here in The Blood-Horse, there are more recent if you search for them:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleind...e.asp?id=39138



I hear you. But I see their side, in that if I have a new product I purchased, and the manufacturer is telling me, based upon their previous experience with other installations, it's best to let things settle down to see what's really there, THEN tweek, I'd suspect I'd go with that recommendation, too.
I agree with you -- ongoing, larger samplings, etc. Dr. Scollay's project is a good one. As far as a library of inuries -- let's say the equivalent of an equine MIB (sans the medications, treatments, etc.), I don't know if that's going to fly.

As far as the track management's perspective, I am not sure that some of these decisions are being made with that much imput from the manufacturer(s). If it is, I would want to know that these people have been on site, inspecting, seeing, experiencing the actual track conditions, changes, etc.

Excellent points.

Eric


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