why hard spun sucks...
 

lets look at the big picture... hard spun todays hat flopping favorite of the people .is a great horse.. he should have been battleing it out with street sence the whole time..but hes not of that class..hes been reduced to 7f.. pretty great.... yee haa larry..you gota real goodin ..

not sure if you were watching the ESPN coverage, but Randy Moss said some sort of inside source said that there was "extra insentive" from whom ever bought Hard Spun's breeding rights if he were to win a Grade 1 before going to the shed. So i guess this was pretty much the only logical choice for that type of race so far along in the season.


Also, did anyone see how apeshit Larry Jones went when someone knocked off his cowboy hat during the celebration with owners and friends in the grandstand. His horse finally won the elusive G1 and he looked like Lou Holtz when some kid stole the hat off his head during a post-game interview..... can't lose my favorite stetson


-bt-

LMAO he did look pretty mad:D

Better than seeing his ass up on Hard Spun like we did all of the time around the Triple Crown races. No wonder he couldn't win - he was tired all of the time...

Matt,

I assume this was fueled by Budweiser or meant to be provocative, because otherwise, it's a rather ridiculous comment. The King's Bishop is 7f.. a distance that is indicative of class which is why there are two Gr. I 7f races for 3yo's (Bishop/Malibu). Hard Spun's effort today was outstanding. Battling on/near the lead the entire way, getting headed, and then battling back to the wire. While he has a pedigree that was thought to be perfect for classic distances, it has been apparent to most that he was more of a brilliant type than a stayer type.

In running 2nd in the Haskell and winning the King's Bishop, he joins Tale of the Cat and Forestry. The ability to win at 7f, coupled with the ability to place gamely at 10f in the Derby and Haskell makes Hard Spun a rather special horse. Another horse that comes to mind to compare him to is More Than Ready, who was a King's Bishop winner that fell short at classic distances. Is he in Street Sense/Any Given Saturday company among this crop? No.. But he's been campaigned seriously and shown tremendous 'class' and should be a terrific sire.

Steve,

Remember when I wrote that Hard Spun was "sore and stiff" during Derby Week and hundreds of people wanted me killed or fired, or both? Those were good times.

By the way, your analysis is right on the money.

I cant disagree more. This horse has shown me nothing but class. He battled it out gamely in all three jewels of the triple crown, running a monster race in the Ky Derby.

Great race by gamely holding of Curlin in the Haskell

Lets see who his graded race losses have come at the hands of:

Street Sense
Curlin
Rags to Riches
Any Given Saturday

He has run in 8 races in 2007 ( an 8 month period ). No small feat in today's racing world.

He has won races at distances of 5.5f, 6f, 7f, 1m, 9f He has won on dirt and polytrack.

Yesterday he attended scorching fractions, was faced with a horse passing him for a stride and looked that horse in the eye and proceeded to draw away from said horse. Not only has his races on track been more than admirable in EVERY race he has run, but he has also had to deal with having an owner that has tried so hard to mismanage him.

As far as "should have been battling it out with street sense the whole time"
the connections made a GREAT decision to run in the Kings Bishop. He gets a GR1 win against what I feel was a very competitive, and large field. IMO he accomplished YESTERDAY more than SS who beat six other horses with a combined 1 stakes win.

he should go in the BC Sprint instead of the BCC IMO

Agree 1000 % !!!

I hate to pile on you hooves, but if winning a G1 race at Saratoga is "patetic" or makes the horse a "big turd," I think it is possible that your standards are a bit too high.

To the fan a Hard Spun-Street Sense battle would have been exciting but Grasshopper filled in nicely. I don't see Hard Spun digging in past 8f with anyone though. He is a miler, which breeders love, but he can't get the 10f comfortably, so they made the right decision.

He is now a 100K starting fee, and it won't go up or down even if he were to win the Classic. His pedigree and win in a grade 1 puts him right there with SS in the shed. 100K to start.

His best shot would be the BC Mile on the dirt but they are not going to run against Discreet Cat.

I think we need to give Hooves a mulligan here. It was a late night post that sounds like it was made out of a little frustration. I think I know where he's coming from in the sense that it would have been more interesting to see him run in the Travers. Obviously it was a smart and in the long run a financially sound decision to run him in the Kings Bishop. It's a shame that the race turned into a two horse race pretty much the whole way around. The horse I used E Z Warrior did not get going until late. I also know that like myself, Hooves is not a chalk man as he has provided many of us on here some great picks. Remember Keeneland? Anyway, let's cut the man some slack.

The real knock on Hard Spun is how slow he ran the last 1/8th. Are the kidding thinking this horse could stay at 10f. He never has and he never will.

Interesting thing is that Jones also indicated to me that he figured the colt to be a serious middle distance GRASS horse when he got him. He trained over grass last season before his debut and his first run was seen as a sprint prep for a later grass route try. Jones still thinks he might be better on grass but knows that he'll never race over it, which is too bad.

Hard Spun has raced 8 times this season, competed in ALL the Triple Crown races, has twice placed at 10f and now won a 7f G1. During the TC everyone whines that no one takes on all three and then when one does and then follows up with 2 very solid G1 performances, he's bashed because he LOST ONE???

HS is undefeated under 1 mile and yet has earned over $1m while routing. What does a colt have to do?

BTW, I saw HS 3 or 4 times this week and he looked great. He was bucking and playing in the paddock yesterday. Unsoundness has never been a problem. He doesn't even wear standing bandages. He was the picture of fitness and readiness yesterday and it was JONES who got him there.

you did see the ky derby, right?

Well, I certainly don't think 10f is going to be his best distance, but his one try at that distance wasn't exactly a complete flop. Second to Street Sense (and therefore in front of horses like Curlin and AGS) is not exactly a shameful performance. Personally I think 8-8.5 furlongs is probably where he would be the most effective, but he can still be pretty decent stretching out to 9f and beyond, and as he showed yesterday, he can sprint and be effective too.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm...just dont like em...would of loved to see frankle win..i may have been out of line,.. delete at will............:eek:

one thing not to like him, but saying he sucks is quite a statement.

[quote=hoovesupsideyourhead]lets look at the big picture... hard spun todays hat flopping favorite of the people .is a great horse.. he should have been battleing it out with street sence the whole time..but hes not of that class..hes been reduced to 7f.. pretty great.... yee haa larry..you gota real goodin ..[/QUOT


thats better..

"Also, did anyone see how apeshit Larry Jones went when someone knocked off his cowboy hat during the celebration with owners and friends in the grandstand. His horse finally won the elusive G1 and he looked like Lou Holtz when some kid stole the hat off his head during a post-game interview..... can't lose my favorite stetson"

that's a cowboy thing. you can take his girl but don't touch his hat.

This may be true.
However the horse has something very special.
Guts.

And I am not so sure any of this years crop are special horses. Especially after what I witnessed in the Belmont. Jury is still out on all. I know we have one very good Filly that can compete with the best males. But thats about it.

And I am sure Curlin, SS, AGS, or Rags would not hold up running right at 22.7, 44.2, 1:08.5 fractions and still hold up to win.
So there is no question about the horses speed, I dont care what happened the last 1/16 or 1/8. Those were very tough conditions to run that type of race. Heat index over 100... and the heat index for horses is higher than it is for humans because of the size of their body and inability to efficiently remove heat.

The effort was extraordinary.

You can't fault Hard Spun because he's not as effective going 10 furlongs. That's like faulting a sprinter because he can't go far.

He was 2nd in the Kentucky Derby, which is ten furlongs, and would not have lossed if Street Sense hadn't been allowed to pass 17 horses up the rail without getting stopped.

By the way, even after a stumble, Hard Spun was gaining on Street Sense in the last 100 yards of the Derby.

He's only less effective going a Classic distance when he's NOT ALLOWED to lead due to incompetent rating tactics by his rider -- or horses like Flying First Class and XChanger setting an insane pace.

In the King's Bishop, over a Saratoga track that was not that fast (Street Sense got a 109 Beyer for running a moderate 2:02.70) -- Hard Spun was pressing the pace setter through fractions of 21 and change and 44 1/5ths, while pulling against his rider....

If he can't fully relax when denied the lead, while up on a very hot pace, in a Grade 1 sprint race -- how is he supposed to see out a classic distance when denied the lead and pulling -- at distances much longer?

Do people even realize that through a series of unlikely circumstances this horse WASN'T on the early in the Preakness, WASN'T on the early lead in the Belmont, and WASN'T on the early lead in the Haskell.

Does anyone think a similar styled horse like Commentator was capable of doing anything at a route distance while denied the lead? When allowed to run off on a loose lead in the Whitney, Commentator defeated Horse of the Year Saint Liam in very fast time.

Sure did. Last time I checked his last 1/8th was nothing to write home about. Pretty sure he didn't win that one. :) He can't go 10f. Where was he in the Preakness and Belmont? The horse is a great miler. He just isn't a 10f horse. He will put in a nice effort in the Classic, much like another miler, George Washington did last year, but they are not 10f horses. Neither is Discreet Cat.

What is that saying --- A horse can run any distance, if they go slow enough.

The G1 win yesterday was worth 15 million for Porter. The deal was $20 mil without a G1 win and $35 mil with. I talked about that the day they announced it. So this race had nothing to do with the BCC and everything to do with them scrambling trying to find a G1 that he could win. Now Darley has to add 15 million to the check, they could care less now. Oh did anyone by chance hear Porter thanking everyone yesterday? "I'd like to thank Larry and Cindy Jones, Mario Pino, and the whole Fox Hill Fart team, I'm mean Fox Hill Farm team." Was a funny blooper.

so, losing by a length is the difference between getting or not getting the 10f? then i guess AGS REALLY can't get 10f, as far back as he was in the derby, neither can curlin--altho that one did almost get 12f. hmm, can't get the 10f, but got 9 1/2, and lost at 12 by a nose. ok, i think i get it.
yeah, that all makes sense to me...:rolleyes:

I think this is a very reasonable assessment.

It isn't a matter of whether or not he can get 10f. Obviously he can. He just can't beat the top horses at that distance. He has tried repeatedly and failed repeatedly. Curlin has tried and won. AGS has tried and won. They don't have problems getting the distance.

Hard Spun's best distance is 8f and shorter. Look at the last 1/8th of all his route races. He tires.

Are you saying you know better than the trainer who ran him in a 7f race yesterday instead of a 10f race? The Travers is a much more prestigious race than the Kings Bishop but for some reason the trainer went 7f.

If he runs poorly in the Classic nobody will care. Everyone already knows he can't run that far. Great race for him because he can't hurt his reputation, just like Coolmore's miler last year, George Washington.

i think the 7f choice was due to street sense going in the travers, as well as the want to get that gr 1, why not take what may be the easier route? it worked. i'm not saying he is BETTER at the longer, i'm saying the contention he can't handle 10f is wrong. had street sense not gotten a perfect, dream trip in the derby, hard spun is your winner. he has finished ahead of curlin, ahead of AGS, he's in the mix every time.

and please, make up your mind. in your previous post you said he can't get it, now you say he can. which is it??

what was the unlikely circumstance in the Haskell? Hard Spun ran the race his own way in hand, took the lead heading for home and was inhaled by Any Given Saturday.

These circumstances that cause him to be denied every time are called racing. If its happens every time he routes can you really attribute it to special circumstances, or is it more likely that it will be hard for Hard Spun to find a GR1 route race wherein he is handed an uncontested lead in moderate fractions. To me that is the more unlikely circumstance.

He can obviously get the distance, he has already. He just can't "get" this distance, meaning he doesn't want to run that far. His last 1/8th is always slow. He has yet to win going longer than 9f and more than once he gave up the lead in the stretch.

There is nothing wrong with being a great miler. He is a great miler and a very good router, but clearly he is not as tough past 9f.

well, that was quite a struggle to find that we both feel pretty much the same way about hard spun.
i think he showed a new dimension yesterday tho...unlike his last few, he refused to throw in the towel. and maybe that will make all the difference.

i know some talked about senses next start, wonder where hard spun will go next? surely one more for him as well before the big day.

Hard Spun is looking at the Kentucky Cup Classic at Turfway on September 29.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/bre...assic&b=215926

I love Hard Spun... so happy to see such a gritty colt get his G1 win yesterday. Congrats to his connections. :)

He stumbled coming out of the gate...and was drawn outside of the undefeated one-dimensional Cable Boy....who needed the lead to have any shot.

So, after the stumble, had Pino not put Hard Spun to stout restraint, he would have found himself in a bitter head-to-head speed duel.

Hard Spun got loose in the Kentucky Derby -- in a race over-flowing with speed horses -- he is fast enough to get loose in virtually all Grade 1 route races.

However, his connections have been afraid to use his only real weapon (his natural speed) since the Derby. They decided they had to use it in the King's Bishop...because Hard Spun has never had dirt kicked in his face before, and horses often struggle from the off-the-pace when expieriencing that for the first time.

At this time of the year, all these silly one-dimensional sprinter/milers like Flying First Class and Cable Boy have proven they aren't Grade 1 routers -- and the pace of these big races often start to get much slower.

Good lawd, the horse ran an impressive race - he was all in, and battled back gamely, and won that race on ability and class. He was still blowing incredibly in the winners' circle, wringing with sweat. Good placement, and good job, by Jones!

Plus I bet on him and he still won!

Rick Pitino said it right -- "It takes no talent to be a critic"

Everyone knew that this horse needed to get a G1, and he did it -- and did it impressively. Find all the fault you want, knock the last 1/8th, whatever, heckle the connections for not going wherever it is you think you'd go if you owned/trained/etc. this horse.

This was an impressive race. He got pushed hard and stung early, didn't get a breather, and then got hooked by a horse laying in wait. Got hooked and put him away.

Unless you are breeding mares to him, what difference does it make whether he's at his best at a mile (and under), or if he can go X distance -- he's showed up to every dance and danced pretty well. Are you faulting a sprinter or a miler for not being able to get 9f? Futile arguement or just looking to knock.

Eric

I agree, but the trainer and owner brought it upon themselves with their lies about why they were running in the race. Even the clowns at ESPN were laughing at how they were saying they went in the race because it was a good prep for their eventual plan of the Breeders Cup Classic. Don't insult my intelligence. He was in the race because they needed a grade 1 win for a bonus and they didn't want any part of Street Sense at a distance where their horse has struggled to win. It wasn't because they thought it was a good prep.

So we've decided to let him show what he's good at. We'd like to get him a Grade I win, but mostly we want to get ready for the Breeders' Cup Classic."