Originally Posted by Sweetness

Let me start by saying that I'm not trying to bash anyone here, just curious as to what people think. I've read a lot of posts about how bad Garrett Gomez is, and I don't know, I just don't agree. He finishes strong, and he has great hands. I will agree that his judgement isn't always the best, but who's is. In my opinion there are far more overrated guys out there. Rafael Bejarano is the first that comes to mind. The reason I say this, is because he was being groomed as the next pat Day, and I'm sorry I don't see it. He is consistently outridden by Julian Leparoux, and I think his decision making most of the time is okay at best. I know he wins a ton of races, but most of the time it's because he's on the best horse, and I just think the guy is overhyped. Another is Ramon Dominguez, who also wins a ton, but again he is usually on the best. Now he did have a decent Saratoga meeting last year, but my problem with Dominguez is I think he tries to get cute too much, and tries to look good instead of getting the job done. In no way am I saying that he isn't trying to win, I just think if he were a bit more focused he could dominate. Both riders are very talented, don't get me wrong, but before we crown these guys as the next Bailey, or whoever lets look at the veterans right now.

Originally Posted by Scav

disagree deepthroatgas....

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Who ever said I don't respect what they do? In fact, one of the people on your list of riders you like is one of my close friends. However, I believe that jockeys as a group are extremely overrated. They get way to much credit when they win and way too much blame when they lose. Their job is to not screw it up when they are supposed to win. A jockey is not measured by the handful of races he ( or she ) might win in a year due to extraspecial guile but are, in fact, measured by the number of races they screw up where they should have won. The lower the latter number the better the rider.

I honestly doubt Jerry Bailey would disagree with the previous paragraph and he was the best, and smartest, rider I have ever seen.

Originally Posted by Scav

The french man has really impressed me lately with some of his rides...He is one kid that isn't afraid to shoot holes and make his own room in a legal fashion. I remember when he got tossed over the rail at Keeneland, only to get up the next race...Albarado would have taken a week off

Albarado is overrated.

I get SOLID rides from Raffie, Migs, Guidry, Nakatani, Emigh, Bridgo, Martin Jr(not today but in general) and Mena...

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Overrated riders? I think that's redundant.

It's the same answer as the corny joke my father used to ask me every time we drove by a cemetary when I was a kid. " How many people are dead in that cemetary? "


All of them.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Gomez' awful ride on TM BLING stands out like a retarded kid at a Spelling Bee.Anytime somebody thinks Gomez is a great rider,go to the Belmont web site.Click video,and find the race on the undercard of the Belmont this year.You can not be dumber than that.Sometimes the guy is smart as a potted plant.Sure ,he gives some good rides,but he ain't gunna make it up to ya when he blows a chalk ride.Oh yes,he will blow some more rides on chalk.Why? Because when he is a target,he is easy to get into trouble.Not in the top 50% of the smartest guys out there.Prado simply makes an a$$ out of him,and that will probably continue to be the case.When he costs you a bunch of dough you'll see.

Originally Posted by Scav

off topic here but Mig doesn't lose on Allen Jerken's runners, think he is a little less then 50% on his mounts, was 4 for 10 and now 5 for 11 today....

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I agree...on most occasions the horses dictate the outcome of the race, not the riders...There are a few races out there were riders visually make a difference but it is a minor percentage IMO...If one horse is typically three lengths faster than another horse and they race together and the faster horse has Tammy Fox on him and the slower horse has Angel Cordero - I'll still bet on the faster horse everytime...I think Ramon Dominguez is the most underrated rider in the country if that gives you a better answer to your original question.

Jockeys have a tough job, don't get me wrong....they have to be in immacualte physicval condition and they lay their bodies on the line everytime they exit the paddock on to the race track, but our sport's real superstars are the horses and not the jockeys....

Now, I do think a rider can ruin the outcome of a race, obviously, and it happens WAY more than they actually positively assist the outcome of the race...This is just reality and not me on a jockey-hating tirade...I actually respect jockeys a lot, but I am alos an owner and I see who pays for everything in this sport and who makes the money in this sport, which is no secret....

It's funny because I actually disagree with the original poster a little bit...I believe that Rafael Bejarano is the most talented and best rider in the game...Leparoux is a very solid up-and-comer but I like Rafael's athleticism more, and he is not scared to try on cheap horses, which many prima donas out there won't do....I believe Ramon Dominguez is the most UNDERrated rider in the country if that helps your original question, but they all probably get too much credit for their actions when one of their horses win IMO - but that is how the racing world is set up...the media can't interview the horse so the next logical figure they can latch onto as a 'star' is the jockey because they are interviewable (well some of them are)..LOL

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Basically, bettors use jockeys in a transparant attempt to veil their handicapping inadequacies. They blame them for losses when in fact it was more than likely a mediocre handicapping job ( hey, even good horseplayers don't handicap all the races well ). The truth is it is rare that you are absolutely cost money by a poor ride. And, more importantly, nobody ever seems to notice those few times when you cash simply because another rider buried his mount. I guarantee this happens MUCH more than you are cost a win by a poor ride. It's simply numbers.

But, also, people spend way too much time worrying about riders when attempting to handicap. It is a distraction and a complete waste of time and energy. Handicap the horses and hope for the best.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

And, more importantly, nobody ever seems to notice those few times when you cash simply because another rider buried his mount.

Originally Posted by Sweetness

I've watched the replay a few times, and I just disagree. What would you have liked Gomez to do? Harry Vega's horse outsprinted him, and he sat patiently there. As they turned for home, the hole opened, then it shut, and finally opened again. First off, Songster is very talented and no one was going to beat him that day. I think it was more of Harry Vega not letting Gomez through, as he was trying to salvage second, then anything Gomez did wrong. Did you read Baffert's post race comments, he said something to the extent of Vega costing TMB the race and him having some connection to Prado.

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I agree, TMB was a vistim of the draw.....

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

truth is it is rare that you are absolutely cost money by a poor ride.

Originally Posted by Sweetness

I disagree totally, how is Dominguez underrated?

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I agree, TMB was a vistim of the draw...anytime you draw down on the inside you run the risk of getting a bad trip..its just physics...there is nowhere to go on the inside and you can only go outside...the jockey has a decision to make early on in the race whether to Go or settle back and come around - or in TMB and Gomez's case keep in striking range and hope for an opening to present itself....I can't see much wrong with that ride...it was a bad trip and there was probably little he could do about it...think about it..if he pushes the button early to get into the clear he compromises his horse for the stretchrun, and if he takes way back to get into the clear then he loses that mush more ground to make up in the late stages of the race....he did the right thing IMO and just got unlucky...this is a sport that is a large majority of luck, you know...

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Do toi the circuit he rides on he doesn't get the buzz of the Prados, etc. but I don't think he takes a back seat to them one bit from a talent and overall riding total package-perspective...

Originally Posted by Sweetness

That's because Prado is riding against the best colony in the country every day, and Dominguez isn't. I mean Jeremy Rose is okay, and so is Mario Pino, but for the most part Delaware is real weak talent wise. Talent wise I agree, he has it, I just think sometimes he tries to look to good, instead of just getting up.

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I don't know about that...I can say that I've seen several rides that I firmly believe cost a horse a win or better placing, and NO - most of the time I don't have money on the horse (LOL)....you see riders hurt horses FAR more than you see them help horses...

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I agree, TMB was a vistim of the draw...anytime you draw down on the inside you run the risk of getting a bad trip..its just physics...there is nowhere to go on the inside and you can only go outside...the jockey has a decision to make early on in the race whether to Go or settle back and come around - or in TMB and Gomez's case keep in striking range and hope for an opening to present itself....I can't see much wrong with that ride...it was a bad trip and there was probably little he could do about it...think about it..if he pushes the button early to get into the clear he compromises his horse for the stretchrun, and if he takes way back to get into the clear then he loses that mush more ground to make up in the late stages of the race....he did the right thing IMO and just got unlucky...this is a sport that is a large majority of luck, you know...

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I agree they hurt horses far more than they help them. This is true even for the best riders. They have to. It's very hard to really make that much of a difference on the positive side and not that hard to screw it up. Sure, we all lose bets we should have won, Mike Luzzi CLEARLY cost me a score in the finale Friday when I needed the favorite for a good Pick-4 hit when he buried him unnecessarily on the rail behind a bad speed going down the backstretch and ended up getting shuffled back to last before rallying to lose by just over a length, but what I guess I should have said is that riders cost the average horseplayer only a fraction of the beats they blame on them. And, as I did say, you will be the positive beneficiary of other bad rides much more often. That's just a numbers game.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

"Songster is very talented and no one was going to beat him that day."




Well,I have no fear in calling a spade a spade.This statement is that of an idiot.If you think Bling couldn't have beaten this horse ,then you're an idiot.The horse simply needed a ride.He was kept in neutral,and he is not used to that.The incredible thing is all the excuses made for this guy.No matter what he does..."it couldn't have been helped"..."oh..bad luck" etc.etc.
My God,everybody who rides a horse from the 1 hole has a built in excuse from now on.He got Behaving Badly off the rail,and into the winners circle today.No reason he couldn't have done it with Bling.The amazing thing is that Bling is so versatile.He won the 2nd start this year by going right to the lead.He won his 1st race this year,and the Aqueduct race,by closing.He let Prado and Vega make all the decisions.They rode his horse.He let them do that by not staying out of trouble.He is the chalk on the rail.He has to use the horse's speed to get out of there,or take back.What he did was allow somebody else to clear and come over in front of him.He thought he could sit behind him,and get a hole to get out? Well,we all know that if he is on chalk and in New York,he will get covered up like Prado did.After you guys get done making excuses for him,you'll realize Prado would have won if rode Bling.He never would have placed his horse 2nd behind the leader.He would have laid back further,and got off that rail(either on the backstretch ,or in the stretch.)Gomez put this horse in "No Man's Land"(RIGHT BEHIND THE SPEED,AND ENTICED OTHERS TO LOCK HIM IN.)I'm sorry,but I fail to see why Gomez thought he wasn't going to get locked in.He allowed another big gray at Santa Anita to get locked in the same way.The horse never did get out.It was like the worst ride all meet,but the fact is he repeated the mistake in New York(a few months later.)

Originally Posted by Sweetness

I also have no problem calling a spade a spade and you sound like a child. So let me get this straight you obviously needed TMB, so your are upset because your handicapping sucked. Baffert was upset TMB drew the 1 hole, because it's a tough post, especially going 7 panels at Belmont. He also didn't allow somebody to clear, Vega's horse is a lighting fast horse out of the gate, and he was outbroke. He made his decision to sit, and had the hole opened when Gomez wanted, I don't think he was going by. Also, Prado sits on the rail all of the time, and comes through the rail, or doesn't if the hole doesn't open. It absolutely is luck. You're just sour because you lost, well that happens, you win some, you lose some. Stop crying.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

"just curious as to what people think"



You brought it up.You got your f'n feedback.The guy blew this ride,and most people come to make excuses for "stars," and that is just they way it will always be.You,or I make a costly mistake,and we are written up etc. for it.Not this "star" jockey.He gets bailed out by every starstruck guy with a keyboard.This is not new.You went much farther.You said nobody was going to beat Songster that day.That is such total crap.TMB is a much better talent,and will kick Songster's a$$ every other time they meet.