Is this the best we have?
 

I don't mean to put a downer on all the people who love Lava Man, but is our best older male horse really the one who probably won't even contest the Breeder's Cup and for whatever reason has never won a race outside of California? :confused:

yea, probably. I mean street sense and curlin are solid three year olds but as far as the older division goes, yea.

Maybe next year...the BC is in Cal isn't it? Lava Man is a good horse...we don't have any great ones. Right now, it looks like the BCC could be a 3yo race!

don't forget about prem tap i think he is our best older horse

He is done racing in the US.

now called "allah" and racing overseas exclusively

i didn't realize that, i thought kimm was going to get him back after dubai. thats a shame.

yeah i remember the name change but thought the saudi owners were going to send him back over for a run at the classic and a summer campaign here.

Premium Tap will not return to U.S.

http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=24769

A disappointed John Kimmel confirmed Wednesday that Premium Tap, runner-up to Invasor in the $6-million Dubai World Cup (UAE-I), will remain in Saudi Arabia to point for next year’s King's Cup, which the colt won this year, and possibly another try at the World Cup.
All Kimmel would say is that the horse’s owner, King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, has decided against returning the son of Pleasant Tap to the United States, and will keep him in Saudi Arabia. Kimmel says he doesn’t know who will train the horse or if he even will start again this year.

that's from the last article i saw regarding the matter.
shame too, premium tap could really be in the mix for HOY if he returned, and returned to form. invasor is the only one he was losing to lately, and that one of course is gone.

so it sounds like what i thought, they were going to at first.well i missed that article and missed the thread on here at the time, which im sure there was. beautiful just beautiful!!!!!!!!!

The Suburban was a suckass fest. I was really disappointed with Fairbanks' performance.

Lava Man? That was fantastic. 3 in a row.

outside the 3 yo's come bc time -this has to be the worst year for the older division.ther is nobody out there that is a standout for the bcc. and i remember all the **** poor st.liam took when some thought, this is the best we have? horse didn't get enuff credit and would take him back in a instant over this bunch. he would crush em

and by the way how is your husband doing? and the rest of the family?

and by the way how is your husband doing? and the rest of the family?

Really? Who the hell did Saint Liam beat that year? Commentator with the help of two rabbits, Flower Alley, Perfect Drift, Badge of Silver? Yeah, those are some real superstars. He was a nice horse, but to act like he was beating horses tons better than this year's crop is ridiculous.

I would think that someone will emerge from this older horse group and stamp himself as the one to beat in the older horse division - or I could just be wishing.

Well at least his beyers were grade 1 quality. FWIW.

Exactly, and none of these horses could even look Zapper in the eye while both at a trot, let alone in a race like the Woodward.

Look him in the eye? they wouldn't be able see his ass. He is aleast 15 lengths better than anything running today.

he's doing ok, bored to tears. but everything is looking good. 20 one and a quarter inch screws in his heel. he just has to wait for time to go by now. everyone else is doing great. thanks for asking! hope you are all well.

funny tho that someone brought up saint liam--he didn't ship west too well, and had excuses. so why is that ok to excuse an eastern horse failing, but not a western horse when they ship?
someone is bound to step up--question is 'who?'

as an aside, regarding wilko--what is his value now, since he's about 0-18 since the bcj? they talk about a horse winning a big one, so you can't afford to run him at four (street sense for instance) so what about wilko? wonder what his insured value is now...

Because that horse shipped to several other states and did just fine except for that one time. I think anyone would agree that Saint Liam was a very good horse and threw up some remarkable races in the Woodward and Whitney, but he wasn't exactly an all-time great who was going to bring that sort of game on every race day.

Personally I'm not about to be blown over by a horse who probably is the best we have running right now but would probably get his butt handed to him by a horse like Flashy Bull in the biggest race of the year if Lava even showed up.

not asking anyone to be bowled over, just don't hold him to a higher standard than any other horses.
i just find it amazing that he wins, and gets knocked--where's the criticisms for corinthian?? hell, he stayed east and finished last!

lava man has lost once in cali in two years, it's an amazing stretch. an admitted stall racer, they probably shouldn't have shipped him the times that he did, it obviously puts him out of his game. kudos to them for trying imo. at least they tried.
i just think it's a shame that a horse who has accomplished so much can't get a break from fans. again, give him his due for what he's done, not what he hasn't.
he's now a graded winner on three surfaces. only the second ever three-peater in the history of the gold cup.

I disagree that this year is a downer. Corinthian was overdue to bounce and he will be back stronger. Flashy Bull has been looking good as well. Don't forget about Sun King...okay well maybe that's a stretch. :rolleyes:

I don't think the 3 year olds have been a downer, but where is the depth in the older male division?

Re - Lava Man; I think it's great that he draws the crowds he does when he runs and that his career has lasted so long. It's a refreshing change from the Smarty Jones' et al of the world which seems to be what racing is now going to be about. Win big and goodbye...

Those who got to experience racing before the late 90's were truly lucky.

You just named three horses who will contest the Breeder's Cup Mile and 70 yards race. None will be in the Classic. Neither will Lava Man. I can't remember a weaker crop of older horses.

Paul

Depth? Where is the surface?

overdue to bounce?

he bounced yesterday? Or how about in the face of a legit grade 1 pace and distance probably farther then his best he folded.

The sad thing is that Lava Man actually ran in the Gold Cup. By him winning, his story overshadowed just how bad a field it was. Would have been the same thing had Invasor showed up and romped in the Suburban. While everyone would have been praising him, the level of the competition would have been overlook. Without him, everyone got to set it. This is a horrible, horrible year for older males in this country and it's getting work by the year.

i'm telling you he to flack and would eat up this older division this year. only horse to come close to sniffen ghostzappers ass. never said he was beating tons better you did. if you think we have superstars any better right now your high as a kite!!!!!

So you'd rather have one "superstar" beating up on four-horse fields all year long than have a bunch of mediocre horses facing each other over and over? I say both scenarios suck, so I don't see the need for a "standout"..

i think both scenarios stink also. but the year st liam won the bcc. alot of people said the division was weak while including st liam with it. and he more then proved he was a worthy horse. what i do not see in this years older division is any horse close to st liams ability. and that is my point -everyone thought that group was crap -even st liam, yet when you look at this bunch. st liam looks a heck of alot better and i appreciate what he did prob more then any older horse is going to claim this year. i think this is a year a 3 year will take the bcc.

The horse that LM beat (by a nose) had yet to run a 100 Beyer.

The S. Foster is starting to look like the premier race in the handicap division this year.

I think it may be awhile before we see either Cor. and HAOS.

I think every is jumping the gun a bit. It's a little too early to call this years crop a throw out just because Invasor has been retired and Lava Man is just being Lava Man on the west coast.

It's way too early for this kind of talk. We still have a few races at Monmouth, The Whitney, the Woodward a couple more at Belmont including the Jockey Club Gold cup the Pac Classic.

Who's to say that Flashy Bull or Politcal Force might be something by BCC time? And what? Corinthian isn't allowed to throw in a clunker? Now what if any of the above named go on to capture the Whitney woodward and the JCCG? Would you still think there isn't a superstar in the division? The older division stakes races is just now heating up. Way to early to throw in the towel.

I mean come on Politcal Force ran the 1 1/4 race in 2:00.5 That actually quite impressive. Much much better than the more highly regarded Lava Man's performance of 2:03 for the same distance.

they got the same Beyer figure....

for what its worth neither effort was very good

Political Force capitalized on a race that fell apart and Lave Man was tracking an inferior horse on a slow pace which eliminated most of the field.

Beyer Schmeyer 2:00 for a mile and a quarter is excellent and will win about 90% of the time at that speed.

If you think Political Force's win was anything close to impressive then you must I have seen a different running of the Suburban than I did. I saw a horse get an absolutely perfect trip and spend the final eighth of a mile looking for a place to lay down. He wasn't wandering all over the stretch because he was " finding more." Fairbanks, who was basically finished at the top of the stretch, was actually giving the illusion that he was coming back at Political Force.

Bottom line.....the older horse handicap division doesn't even exist. It's a bunch of modified allowance horses masquarading as quality. They may fool some people but they aren't fooling me.

And Octave won the Mother Goose in a close decision in 1:47 for 1 1/8 miles.

You might want to take a look at the times that the Belmont dirt track was producing over the last week or so.

I agree, but this would make for great Peb material for the Whitney cover of the DRF!