Gorbachev: Iraq
 

Though many will disagree with Gorbachev's statements, I found them to be of interest.
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/225995

Not much to disagree with. There's no way to "win" this thing, we can only lose worse with each day.

Spyder,
Thanks for taking the time to read his words. I don't disagree with him either, that's why I put it up.

I heard on one of the talk shows last night:

"You can win a political war, but you can't win a religious war"

They were talking about the problem in Palestine on how it has gone from political based differences to religious and it also relates to Iraqi right now!

We can't win...lets formulate a plan to get the heck out!:mad:

Mikhail Gorbachev served as the leader of the former Soviet Union from 1985 until its collapse in 1991.

Not exactly the guy we need advice from

Religion as it relates to the Middle East and radical Islam is just a political party in sheep's clothes

As Paul Harvey says:

And now the REST of the story:

He was the last leader of the Soviet Union, serving from 1985 until its collapse in 1991. His attempts at reform helped end the Cold War, and also ended the political supremacy of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU) and dissolved the Soviet Union. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1990.


Our boy GB2 (whom I voted for) is talking tough again to Russian leaders, has caused a huge split within the Republican Party and WILL NEVER win the Nobel Peace Prize.

Cannon,
Did you read the article? If so, what exactly do you disagree with?

I read the article and he says some interesting things. However little can be solved in real life in a 6 paragraph statement. The truth about what has gone on and is going on in Iraq, Afganistan, and other foreign places is not and will not be known by people like us. We just see what is fed to us by the media and gov't both of whom have agendas. I understand that I have no direct knowledge of what is going on or why so I try to keep an open mind about it. As for the Nobel peace prize...after they started giving it to terrorists and Jimmy Carter it dropped in status below the Lady Byng trophy.

Good one,Cannon!

Think long and hard before trying to solve any problem militarily. Talk of all other peaceful means as exhausted is often baseless: An alternative is always available. If, however, a great power makes the mistake of entangling itself in an armed conflict, it shouldn't make things worse by arrogantly refusing to heed warnings of dire consequences.



I think we could have stabilized this country.

The cost in life would be enormous, and we would only resort to this in the most dire circumstances. How were Japan and Germany brought to their knees? Two countries that had very strong "religious" beliefs, that would have been horrible messes if approached in a diplomatic mode when decisions were critical. In the end, when things got very tough, we restorted to massive widespread destruction. Wipe the slate clean. We would not resort to all out massacre. This is an alternative that is not discussed by Gorbachev who is a diplomat.

Again, one lesson from this situation is not necessarily to try and stay out. Use diplomacy. The lesson could be, go in to win. And in hindsight we did not do what was necessary... 100,000 troops for a country this size? We needed to take our time planning, and go in with a half a million. Plan what we would do in every city, at every important oil facility, city power plant, and other imp. infrastructure. But we were not willing to make that commitment or be that patient. We wanted "partners" in this percieved noble quest, and our allies would have never agreed to an enormous commitment. We wanted to win quickly with some semblance of an international blessing.

If the 1/2 million troops had accomplished the above, we might be in sorry diplomatic shape with the rest of the world. Or it is possible, that Iran would not be a problem and other there would be new books written about Nation Building. There are a world of possibilites that are very hard to predict. People constantly look back after events have been played out... this was no win, or if we had only done it like this... and none of these are necessarily correct. This is not like predicting where the moon will be in 2 years... we know exactly where it will be, the rules are simple.

The whole premise Gorby makes is based upon assumptions of how a "war" is approached. The more total control scenario is not mentioned in the article at all, it would be considered a diplomatic nightmare by Gorbachev. Nonetheless it is was a possible solution.

Here's an interesting email posted on balloon-juice.com from someone working in the military. The "theater" he's referring, to, I'm willing to assume, is Iraq. I'll put the link below, too.

"Just had an interesting conversation with a fellow who just returned from the theater and I mentioned my theory about the Prez going nucular about the supplemental funding resolution and its pullout dates because he was going to pull a lot of troops out next summer (the same timeframe) and claim it was because of “success.” He busted out laughing saying “of course that’s why” and its openly spoken of by the troops and leadership in Iraq.

He said KBR (Halliburton) has already started closing things down, cutting back the nice to haves, and letting go all their non-American employees (mostly eastern European guys). Clearly they’ve gotten the word to scale things way back.

Our side needs to be prepared to counter the propaganda that will be driving this. I know it’s politics as usual, but the soldiers who die in the meantime are pawns and should not be forgotten in the calculation. The military leadership, while always biased to conservatism, is particular craven in its failure to speak the truth and in its collusion in this charade.

The soldiers are generally not stupid, but many still feel somehow that they are fighting for American freedoms. It’s that loyalty and patriotism that is tapped by the venal jerks on the neo-con right and exploited. I am not ashamed of the soldiers or my former career as an officer, just the generals and culture that have become hypocritical and duplicitous in the un-American and undemocratic times we find ourselves.

You can put an “X” on your calendar next summer when “success” miraculously happens in Iraq."

http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8289

Anyone want to wager the neo-cons will try to time "success" so that it will be of maximum benefit to their side in the elections?

but many still feel somehow that they are fighting for American freedoms

The soldiers I have contact with do not feel this way. They get through the mess by having small defined missions that they still try and carry out, and most importantly of all, they fight for each other. There is a huge sense of brotherhood based on keeping your unit intact and alive... while attempting to accomplish a mission. They try and stay alive for EACH OTHER while carrying out some goal. I got the very strong feeling that they live for each other. An overwhelming sense of working together while staying alive.

My take from soldiers over there, and those that were over in Iraq and are now back here. Sample size of 4 people.

Cannon Shell,
I agree with your statement, "We just see what is fed to us by the media and gov't both of whom have agendas."
The mainstream media feeds us Anna Nicole, Brittany, Paris...on and on.
Can we agree that there's lots of distraction going on?
The current administration has fed us these statements:
It's a slam dunk!

We'll be greeted as liberators

We'll be in and out of there in six months

It will be a cake walk

Iraq is central to the war on terror

We can do it with 150,000 troops

Saddam Hussein had connections to Osama bin Laden

This war is about ridding Saddam of weapons of mass destruction

This war is about bringing freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people

This war is about defating al Queda

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!

BRING 'EM ON!!!!

This is a major turning point

That is a major turning point

The insurency is in it's final throes

We've turned a corner

When they stand up, we'll stand down

Absolutely we're winning

Freedom in Iraq is on the march

And let us not forget the First Fool's famous sixteen words:

The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa

------

Hmmm. I wonder if there are any lies being said.


And Pgardn,
Gorbachov only cited "hindsight".when referencing the Soviet debacle in Afghanistan, and the consequences are quite well known.
He presented a way forward for the United States regarding current circumstances. Believe whatever you wish.

As I stated before, the situation is far more complex than the information that is released for public consumption. To reduce the situation to sound bytes by either source of information is silly. As a matter of fact, in my not so educated opinion about the whole deal, our insistence on knowing the "truth" publically probably causes as much damage as the enemy.

Pgardn,
Interesting that this thread took the direction of going towards soldiers' motivations. I did post grad research on this topic, and I sure hope Somerfrost chimes in.
So, what drives a soldier to participate in a charge against well positioned forces as so many did during the Civil War? Or so many to "go over the top" and venture into no-man's land during WWI? Or be the first to jump out when the amphibious landing hit the shore at Normandy in WW II? Or...
Gosh! I could go on and on.
There really is commonality, and it has little to do with "patriotism", thoughts of freedom, or most of the other BS that the populace is fed that they're fighting for. The motivation that they put their lives on the sacrificial altar of war has nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with the reasons that are given by those that initate the battles in which they die.
The truth is that they feel loyalty to their comrades, their "brothers". The mission comes down to "I don't want to disappoint them, nor do I expect them to disappoint me."
Pgardn, you got it right, "They try to stay alive for each other while carrying out some goal."
Bottom line, the goal is mutual survival, and nothing more.
For further reading:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...e_of_atrocity/

"Knowing the truth causes...damage"?????
I don't think so.
Jefferson stated that government "derives its just powers from the consent of the (informed) governed."
Withholding information, whether it's "embedding" reporters, or putting "plants" in amongst the questioners at press conferences, or not allowing the reporting of caskets coming in to Dover, or denying access to records under "freedom of information" makes a mockery of law and the populace's right to know (be informed).
Therein the "damage".

Damage my ass. You and me have not been directly damaged by anything that has occurred over there or said by anyone. There comes a time when our 'right to know' becomes the problem. Jeffersonian statements about modern problems ring hollow. The world is a much more complicated place these days. The fact that caskets were not allowed to be photograped and publicized does not hurt anyone except those who wish to exploit it. Those kinds of people used to be called traitors. Now they are hailed as activists.

Sorry to disagree with you Cannon Shell,
I'm not a traitor.
Ignorance is damaging.
Information is liberating. That's why it was written into the Constitution as something called "freedom of the press".
Denying that fact denegrates something that many have shed blood to protect and sustain.
There's nothing "hollow" in that!

Cannon Shell,
Before you shoot your mouth off labeling peaople as "traitors", may I humbly suggest that you read this in its entirety. Please pay sepecial attention to the 2nd paragraph. I also think that the 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th and 10th apply.
You are quite free to disagree with me, though I consider myself to be a patriot.
If you claim to be one yourself, please take the time to read this link:
http://www.100megsfree2.com/srscherr...dependence.htm

The denial of the truths within this document demonstrate one of the following:
1) Ignorance
2) Neo-con "brain washing"
3) Sympathy with "terrorists that wish to deny these rights
4) Foolishness
5) Anti-American views (treason)

Take your pick.

I did not call you a traitor unless you had designs on exploiting the pictures of caskets. Freedom of the press has nothing to do with what you are talking about. Freedom of the press gives them the right to operate without fear of govt reprisal. It does not give the press or citizen free reign over all information especially if the govt deems it not fit for the general publics consumption. The problem with 'activists' is they attack personally and create issues instead of fighting with the most powerful weapon that the constitution gave citizens, the right to vote. I dont want to hear about denegrating those who have shed blood. You want it to be right or wrong and I have said time and time again that your opinion and mine are so uneducated about the situation that we cant possibly know who or what is right. You can keep posting all the liberal crap you want but the truth of the matter is that almost all of what we read about concerning the middle east is slanted opinion, one way or the other.

I consider myself to be a law abiding, tax paying citizen of the USA who fails to see what the declaration of Independence has to do with this thread. Just randomly taking a portion of this statement and twisting it to fit your argument is silly. All it really says is that we are tired of being mistreated by the King of England who lives far away and we wish to form a seperate form of self goverance as opposed to being rules by a monarachy.

especially if the govt deems it not fit for the general publics consumption

Now this is where the water gets very muddy. This is not black and white by any means. The Government can be people who have lied and are trying to protect themselves under the guise of Government secrets. Seen this many times before. Just like the Constitution and Bill of Rights might have some parts that seem antiquated or need additions, the freedom of the press has grown to mean something more than what is written down because of the past abuses.

In fact, the press has almost acted as the 4th arm of checks and balances. This may be good in some cases, and bad in others. The press has abused its ability to transfer accurate information before (ruined individual's lives uneccesarily), and the press has exposed numerous Government abuses that would not have been brought to light by any other means. To me, a healthy active press is a sign of a healthy active democracy. Go to any country where the press is getting shut down by some arm of Government, and you very often find a country on the way to chaos, or a country stabilized by an iron fist.

However there is tons and tons of sensitive information that may or may not be in the publics or the countries interests to release. How do you determine that? Who determines what should be released? Reporters? Editors? Every issue can not be decided by public opinion. Those who are elected are sent to Washington to govern. If you feel they are doing a bad job then vote for someone else when they come up for re-election. But these demands to 'know' everything in the name of freedom and pariotism is misguided. One of our countrys problems is that many public officials consult public opinion polls before they choose sides on an issue. Being that the majority of people in this country are more informed about Paris Hilton and pop culture then current or world affairs, it is a truly scary thing.

This is what you have when you have Govt by committee...conduct a poll to see if your lame ideas will float with the public! I should add that the role of supposed govt now is to protect the party(insert both) to achieve its ends...rather than lead the Country by bold,decisive action!

This is exactly why I said the water is muddy. You have had presidents claim executive priviledge that involved covering up their own criminal activities. Do you think Nixon would have resigned if the press had not been involved? Watergate would never had happened and the country would be much worse off for it. The Government is made up of people who can actually be criminals.
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And how does one determine if they are doing a bad job? Do you ask them? The press plays a most important roll in helping deciminate information on which people voted which way and why. You read the papers. I dont call my congressman and ask him what kind of job he is doing... I dont sit in on every legislative session or briefing and take notes. Too much info I dont have readily available. And I also need some of it explained.

That is the beauty of the constitution. That each person gets to choose their own parameters for the role of a politician.

I'm not for censorship and I understand full well the importance of the press, but I get tired of hearing of the 'experts' opinions on things of which they just have cursory information.

If you and I watch a basketball game and have a disagreement about some segment of the game, I can respect your view even if I dont agree because we saw the same thing though perhaps in a different light. If you and I dont see the game then we probably aren't qualified to make decisions about the game being as we have only media reports to judge our opinions on. So any opinions that you have on the game I take with a grain of salt because I know that you are strictly basing your arguements on previous (old) information and the media's interperation. I have a hard time agreeing or disagreeing because I have no first hand info and I know you dont either, and because the media person reporting about the game may be a blithering idiot, I dont want to take too strong of a stance. That is pretty much how I feel about the war in Iraq. Downthestretch may not like it but unless he is CIA and has some kind of secret info that we dont know about, he knows as little about what is going on over there and the reasons behind it as the rest of us.

Hey...I saw "Men in Black"...I know what you mean!

We work in very diff. fields and have seen the abuses by the press.

We have had the press write some things about an incident in a bathroom at our school that never even occurred. It was flat out wrong. Our city paper never even retracted it. The incident report went away, and people asked to know more about the incident, and what was done to the students involved. The press never wrote another word about the incident. There were no names, no one involved, because the incident never happened. (I imagine some reporters got roundly scolded though; in fact one reporter is not a reporter for that paper anymore... dont know if this incident caused it.)

But... The press is given our scores on certain standardized tests. They are given our ideas about how we plan to bring lower income students scores up. We are held accountable in the community by the students, parents and by the press. We have been rated as one of the top public schools in Texas, and also not even made a list of high performing schools that has one of the worst perfoming schools in our district on that very list. Our Principal is asked to explain the differences by the press. To explain the diff. in criteria used to rate the school.
But this is not nearly as easy to judge as watching a game. The criteria must be explained and weighed. I cant visit courtrooms, China, etc...

I dont know what I am trying to say anymore other than the press is part of what makes this country great. Places that do not have an active press, are not places I would want to live. Entertainment and abuses aside, the role is vital. When a country starts to shut down TV and radio stations... something is very wrong. Information, and possible explainations about what the information means are vital. I dont know all the nuiances of Supreme Court rulings, I need a little help besides just straight information.

"Downthestretch may not like it but unless he is CIA and has some kind of secret info that we dont know about, he knows as little about what is going on over there and the reasons behind it as the rest of us."

I do not work for the CIA nor do I have secret info.
That said, the claim that I know little of what is going on over there and the reasons behind it is an assumption, not fact.
I agree with Pgardn that a free press is vital to the functioning of our country.
As voters and taxpayers, we not only have the right to know how our money is being spent, but also the requisite information regarding those that were put into office to represent the "people's" interests.

Speaking of the CIA, here is a decalssified document from 40 years ago.
The word Vietnam has been replaced with Iraq, and there are other minor revisions.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/c...id=3866&page=0

"Those that ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them."

what are we supposed to do, wear blinkers like a race horse ? ignore it ? pretend its right? i consider myself pretty informed considering i've been over there and served 4 years in the navy. number one, the people in most of the middle east do not trust us. 2 , the war on terrorism is a joke its like declaring war on crime or drugs, you can't have a war against a behavior. 3, these morons HAVE BEEN FIGHTING OVER RELIGION FOR CENTURIES because the good old usa got into it things are not going to change, we just made it worse. fighting for our freedom is a lame excuse to give these kids and its just propaganda. these idiots can't run a country let alone take over ours. why do you think they are run by religion and dictators or royals? yet they are fighting for my freedom thats funny because no mlitary force has ever even attempted to invade us ever . the best they have is suicide bombs and hijacking planes, wow , what an armory. yet all these fools in the U.S are scared, of what ,i don;t even know. I have a better chance of getting hit by lightning or a car wreck 3 times over. but " OH God look out for those big bad terrorist, they are coming to get you and your family" give me a break. finally and this is the biggest point , i am sick and tired of our country being the police of the world on its own, read some history, that has been the downfall of every empire. we spend way too much time,money, lives to get our noses in everything and to influence outcomes. then all the morons sit in their lazy boys at home and wonder why others hate us. go live in one of these hell hole countries for awhile. dead bodies in the street ,bombs ,gunplay, smoke and burning fires ,no electricity or water. to top it off soldiers invading and walking your streets 24/7. people here cry if their dvd player doesn't work. if people think the current strategy is working go to local recruiters office step up , sign up and shut up. in my opinion the only thing they care about is the money their making off this travesty !

Point 1. Even the War of 1812?

Point 2. I am also. But when something like the holocaust occurs we let it go?
If we were not in Iraq right now, I am convinced that we would be doing more in Africa. This is very difficult. Innoncent people being slaughtered just does not sit well with me. The world is not as big a place as it used to be... events in what seem like a remote place has more of an effect on the world as a whole than it ever has.

And also: Was going into Afghanistan a mistake also? Think back to what was going on when we decided to go into Afghanistan. At that time, was it a mistake? Because if it was, you are one of the very few people in Western Civilization that believed this.

And lastly: I apologize for prodding discussion. I just like to know what people think. It helps me get a better picture of how people feel and I learn something.

Pat....case in point being Ethiopia. Im not a big fan of continually writing that "government" blank checks when the atrocities that the members of the Ethiopian army are reigning down on the citizens of that country. But as long as the US Government continues to use them as an ally against the radical muslims in the surrounding areas, we are screwed.

Write me down as another who believe it was a mistake.

What the hell good came of it?

Have a better option?

I heard...they said...I think...maybe I don't...it's this way ...it's that way...here's something I read........I dunno.....






Geez!


I mean you're free to write this stuff just as I am right now.No wonder people have no power.They just argue among themselves...but it's been that way for quite sometime now and only gets more buried in the muck.

This is just as bad as call in radio shows.

It is really easy to be against something after the events have played out.

So at the time we went in to Afghanistan, you rejected the entire EU's opinion (even France) also? Just you and Congressman Ron Paul. No seriously, look back at the votes. AT THE TIME, I can remember only a handful speaking out against our Afghanistan foray. After the fact its so easy.

Put yourself in a position of power at that time, in this country and you would have said no... right after 9/11 and the fact the Taliban told us they would protect Osama Bin Laden, come and get him... you would have told your constituents leave the Taliban alone, they good people. Let Osama roam, we cant get the guy. You would have told this to NY city and the families, and the nation. You are a brave man with a crystal ball I dont have.

The Ethopians are ***** cats compared to the Sudanese and their mad henchmen. I dont particularly like it either Kev. But right now they are the only group that is putting a complete slaughter on hold. No one else is. The UN and NATO will do nothing until some sort of stability comes about.

I really dont have a clue as to what should be done other than put big pressure on China to do something.

Is there even a better option Chuck? I think the possibilty of other options exist, but they may not always be the most popular ones. We (the US) have aligned ourselves with Ethiopia for the time being by the financial support we offer them. I dont have a problem with us really giving them the help they need, IF they would treat the citizens of their country in some kind of civilized manner. No decent human being deserves to be treated the way that some of these people are.

Ethiopia has been a great source of support in helping with the fight against radical muslims....but there is still the violating of basic human rights that I don't agree with.