russia
 

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...les/index.html

what is going on here? last thing this planet needs is another cold war.

I agree with most of what this great man said but Iran must NEVER get nukes! We need statesmen not political hacks in the White House...the world must work together on the issues of Iran, North Korea and terrorism...but if all else fails, Iran must be stopped by whatever means are necessary!

Interesting article.
Gorbachov recently spoke against "American Empire". Google it.
It seems to me that Putin is seeing the end of his tenure, as is GWB.
The perception is that the anti-missile system is directed against Russia, not Iran (that doesn't have delivery systems currently) as Bush claims.
Putin's move is to attempt to drive a wedge between the US and the "old" NATO allies in Europe.
Bush really doesn't need to push his agenda at this point in time.
Suffice it to say, he's been wrong before. Perhaps he will continue to be until his term is completed.
Here's something to consider. What would be the US reaction if a country like China installed an anti missile system in its doorstep, like Cuba?

Here's a link to the BBC interview. Also, click on the right side to read Putin's warning to Europe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6717037.stm

Well, we know what Kennedy's reaction was to missiles in Cuba...I agree that this is not something we need to be involved with right now, if Europe wants a defense system they can build their own or use the French method (run like hell at the first sign of trouble)!

would help on that whole global warming thing tho.....

whithout sounding stupid ..i thnk that russia is trying to re live the past ..if we scare america about europe again the will re comit forces to the west..germany ect..keeping them away from the arabs .....

From the article:

Gorbachev said that Russian democracy is growing despite its problems. He noted that the courts don't work and some media outlets have made deals with the authorities. But there is now, he said, a relatively free press.

Russia is moving from a totalitarian regime to democracy, he said, but it is only halfway there.


This is a very optimistic view of Russia. I think its bull.

The press is having a very tough time. And Russia is moving back towards a totalitarian way. Democracy is a terribly difficult thing to achieve. We had some sense that it would just occur automatically. That Democracy is somehow the steady state that is inevitably reached. Well its clearly not.

The institutions must be in place, a country just cant say we want to be democratic. And given Russia's history, the cultural inclination is clearly set up for a very organized totalitarian state, rather than a democracy that cant keep the lights on and protect citizens from criminals. The fledging democracy was rife with scandal and people taking advantage of the government privatizing industries, etc... And the folks on the street get sick of having inequities right in front of their faces, rather than hidden behind the big wall of a government.

IMO, this country is heading in a diff. direction...The easier well worn path. Not the difficult fair path of democracy. And I thank you...

It is bull! It doesn't look like the totalitarian folks are succeeding at "keeping the lights on and protecting the people" very well either!

They don't have to!

Somer: then they should stop rattlin their sabres and get cracking on rebuilding Russia! Agreed?

Exactly. Thats why its easier. Fairness and basic human rights be damned.

You will live in the cold and you will like it commrade.

rather than...

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Pretty intersting counter proposal by Putin

"Putin told Bush he would not seek to retarget Russian missiles on Europe if the United States agreed to put the radar-based system in Azerbaijan, a former Soviet republic bordering the Caspian Sea."

It is an already existing system made by the former Soviet republic a while back. And Putin said in place of one in the Czech Rep. Nonetheless a step at reconciliation. Bush already gave Putin free reign to come in a check out the system with his people and they would use it together.

At least the rhetoric is toned down.

One can only surmised our new talks with Iran are not going as well as they were last week.. Apparently the the potential vacancy in the axis of evil will not occur. All this sh*t is connected. And, of course, Poland gets used again.

Here's my "take" on how this little poker game played.
Bush dealt (sought to install anti missile system), then opened bet (stated that the system wasn't directed at Russia).
Putin threatened to bet (target Europe) but held cards.
Bush tried to have Putin put in.
Putin called bluff.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/5cf1212e-151...b5df10621.html

Bush folds.

lol. And the role of the "house" is played by Haliburton. Taking a bit of skim off the whole thing.

The system cant be directed. It is an antimissle system which Russia does not like because it might limit their chances of striking back if they get hit first. And since it is "our" system, Russia has every right to ask why Europe does not build on its own.
So I think the real attempt is as stated. You dont want rogue states firing any type of missle, conventional or not, without the slightest bit of worry about a retaliatory strike as they will martyr the whole nation readily.
Israel takes this threat very seriously. Given that Iran has OPENLY stated they seek to destroy Israel... and we take the threat seriously because of alliances. We dont want to have to strike an entire nation of innocent people because of a heaven bent leader.
I dont see this as a joking matter. Israel is already back at it again in Gaza and the West Bank. Lebanon is now falling apart again, big suprise there.

S2S,
You might have something there.
Did you know that Russia is now the leading producer of oil? They passed the Saudis recently. Who do you think they're selling their oil to?
Think Europe.
Why would they seek to target the counties that are supporting their market?
Bush, as usual..playing aggressor-in-chief, again shows his ignorance.
Oh well. And so it goes.

So Bush has set the whole thing up for Haliburton to make money?
You know people have called me cynical, but you have the winning hand here.

Pgardn,
You pose an interesting thought. Yes, Israel is the one that feels threatened,
and, yes, they have no interest in seeking resolution with the Palastinians nor their proxies in Lebanon.
So, how about this...put the anti missile system in Israel rather than in the Chec Republic? Afterall, if Iran is really the "worry", though they have about ten years to develop a missile delivery system, and at least seven to develop a nuclear capability, it allows plenty of time for the installation to take place.
What do you really think is behing Bush's "saber rattling" at this point in time?
He only has, what 17 months to come up with a legacy, and it needs to distract from Iraq as much as Paris Hilton does. Right?

Iran already has a missle delivery system in place. Its not in Iran. And Israel has budding missle defense system. But it does not work well because there is not enough time to get some of these missles that are fired closely. The worry is other Countries like Azerbaijan, will go militant also. Lots of ex Soviet south east states are having this problem. This is why we gave Russia so much latitude with their little terrorist problem. Remember Chechnya. These runaway Islamic extremist countries scare them also.

Luckily the missles fired out of Gaza consistently every day now, are not terribly destructive. They just make half of a town of 23,000 civilians leave in Israel. (Imagine if Mexico tried this with our border) The bigger fear is the future of longer range missles. And missle defense systems must be out ahead... and thats very difficult. Given the tricks that can be played. It is much easier to deliver than hit a missle out of the sky. Ever wonder why Iran does not look into missle defense. Its hard. And to be a major player all you need is nukes and delivery. This is where they want to be. They want to be able to keep the "to hell with it card, we will hit you first, it does not matter what happens after that. Go ahead, destroy us, we can still make the world a mess."

I think its fairly apparent we dont want to play that game.

they have no interest in seeking resolution with the Palastinians nor their proxies in Lebanon

What?
Who is Israel supposed to negotiate with? Which authority? DTS cmon... thats just silly.

Pgardn,
Israel previously negotiated to initiate a "Palestinian State". It would go quite far to calm things down if they abided by their agreement.
Their recent actions in Gaza only inflame the tensions.

There is no entity to negotiate with DTS. Israel will not negotiate with Hamas, they have vowed to destroy Israel. Yassir Arafat ruined whatever chance there was way back. Still have not found all the money he stole from the Palestinian people.
Lebanon cannot even negotiate with the Palestinians in camps in their own country. Jordan does not want any Palestinians in their country. No Arab country wants anything to do with them except to harass Israel. They have been screwed by multiple factions and Israel is always to blame.

BTW. Nice to have you back.

Pgardn,
I'm just going way back to the Camp David accord. At this point, all the wall building and the bombing of refugee camps isn't helping to resolve a very complicated and dangerous situation.
And, thanks for the welcome back. I've tried not to post so much "political stuff" as I know this is a horse racing board and some of my views upset others. So, I tried to "cool it" for a while, and the training one of my 2yo fillies is taking some time, but she should be good.
DTS

Pgardn,
I've been searching to try to find substantiation of the claim you made in your first sentence. No luck.
So, where exactly does Iran have their missiles sited?
I have been unable to find any mention of long range testing. If you know a site where testing has been documented, please supply.
Here's something I found on the topic presented, and it seems to back my earlier statements regarding Iran's nuclear development and missile program.
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/edcut?pid=203257

It ain't gonna happen...so I aint holding my breath. Just an offer to appease.

Oh I know buddy, I'm just the reporter. I refuse to battle in the "area"

I know bro....I just find it comical the media feels the need to make a big deal over this whole offer by Putin. The chances of it happening are slim and none.

For one thing...the system that is there is soley an early warning system and not the actual X band radar that is used to guide the anti-missle intercepter. Another thing, Russian does not own the radar system, they lease it from Azerbaijan.

I think that's the sound I make when I sneeze

Bless you.....

Iraq, Lebanon, Gaza strip.

They leave the labels on the things so its pretty darn obvious. Oh yes, these are the ones that have been fired. Not the ones transported and not fired. You dont remember Lebanon DTS? You dont remember the Iranian made rockets fired across the border?

Well you will remember, again... Its going to happen again as the Lebanese government is losing control.

Its not the deal itself but the fact that Putin toned down the rhetoric. They are now going to talk about this stuff. Instead of:
Bush: Antimissles system in.
Putin: Missles aimed at Europe and US.

Then end.

Thanks Pgardn,
Yes, I remember.
Katushas (sp) are hardly capable of delivering a nuclear warhead, no?
And yes, Iran supplies ied's and other nasty armaments to sympathetic constituancies in Iraq. Russia is not a factor, hence, Putin's "calling the bluff".

I think you are lacking understanding of the Russian oil market. First of all Russian oil production is down as they have "nationalized" the big private oil companies which in turn has slowed production. Secondly the oil in Russia is mostly in remote areas and southern areas where there is a lot of unrest. The fact that it's refineries are a long way from its customers leads to higher production costs but because they lack a centralized market (which NYMEX is helping them with) they are selling oil at lower than market prices. Also much of their oil pipelines must pass through other countries such as Belarus which recently had a fued with Russia over supposed Belarussian siphoning of the pipeline. The biggest market for Russian oil sits to the Southeast in China. A booming and developing economy is starving for oil and the Russians have a ton of it in a location that is much better suited to serve China than anywhere else. However Putin is terrified of a strengthing Chinese military power on his border and as such has not pursued the issue verymuch. Because the price of oil has risen so much, mostly due to a tremendous increase in demand by rapidly developing economies in China and India, Russia has been able to "get back on its feet" so to speak in regards to regaining status as a superpower. The fact that they are "nationalizing" the oil industry in an effort to add to the states coffers and Putins seemingly indiscriminate use of oil as a political pawn is the real issue here. That he flippantly talks of aiming missiles is a sure sign that the price of oil is about to go up.

Sure Russia's biggest customers are Europeans but they need the oil more than the russians think they need the European customers. Not to say that they are going to bomb them but there are emerging markets hungry for cheap oil that can replace Europe. However it remains to be seen how long until the russian production mechanism starts to deteriorate without the private companies who brought back seeminly dead fields with new technology and research. Putin is bold because he is flush with oil cash, seemingly is nearing the end of his reign and has the perfect foil in Bush whose international popularity has made hero's out of those who oppose him. But I bet you if given the choice, the leaders of Europe, eastern especially would love to duck under the cover of the missile defense umbrella rather than go back to the fear and actuality of Russian rule.

By the way the Russians passed the Saudis years ago but the reason is that OPEC has strict controls over its members production to keep the price of a barrel of oil high, while Russia pumps away as fast as it can to raise as much cash as possible.

The point is they (Iran) is ready and willing to cause all the problems they possibly can. And they clearly want conventional and nuclear capability upgrades. They are a problem. A big problem. And they clearly put people in office that will sacrifice the entire country. I have no doubt the madman in office now will play any card he has, at any cost.

I heard on the news today that Israel has floated an olive branch to Syria indicating they would move out of the Heights if Syria renounced ties with terrorism...didn't hear any details but a positive step??