Did Hard Spun clip heels with Street Sense?
 

Something of interest...I though Street Sense cut over in front of Hard Spun very quickly in deep stretch but i didn't notice any significant reaction by Hard Spun nor of course did the jockey claim foul...nevertheless, an interesting post:

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> Triple Crown Racing
> The Zapruder Film Of The Derby?


archer

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Posts: 866
(5/10/07 8:22 am)
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The Zapruder Film Of The Derby?
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On another thread Modax said of Hard Spun in the Derby:
"He took a couple of bad steps on the backside, and another after Street Sense veered in front of him." On another board someone posted the following.

Since I had nothing to do at work, I took a look at the video to determine once and for all if Hard Spun and Street Sense clipped.

I inverted the video to a black and white negative image and blew it up 6.5 times. I also slowed it down to frame by frame movement. I used the iso of Street Sense and the blimp camera. When this is done, the horses are white images imposed against the very dark track. The jockeys are black bodies riding the white horses. This allows for a much easier way to see the images of the entire horse. Also, the white wrap on the back leg of Street Sense becomes a black wrap on the white leg.

The kinetic motion of Street Sense's left rear leg is disrupted. The cause of the disruption is the left front leg of Hard Spun. Hard Spun, who at this point was striding out with the left front has his foot shift to the left. It caused his foot to plant improperly and lead to the stumble and his head dropping rather dramatically. Street Sense's left rear hoof clearly shifts to the right during the contact.

The blimp footage clearly shows the two white legs (Hard Spun's left front, Street Sense's left rear) blending as one. If Street Sense was clear when he moved over, the white images would have remained seperated by the dark dirt. This did not happen. Two strides after the eighth pole, the horses where making touching.

I am absolutely 100% certain the horses made contact. The video evidence of the iso cam showing the disruption in the kinetic movement of the horses is indisputable.

I also checked earlier in the race where Hard Spun seems to drop his head. The only times he seems to lower his head out of the ordinary is when he is changing leads. He did not change leads at the eighth pole.

It's a nonissue because it didn't affect the order of the race, but it appeared to me like it was very possible there was a minor amount of contact.

Yeah, I don't see it as any issue, just something interesting. I thought as I watched the race that SS was guided to the rail quicker than necessary after passing Hard Spun, the kinda thing that could be a problem...but wasn't.

There was a definite bobble by Hard Spun, but whether it was caused by wobbly legs or clipping heels is up for debate.

Saw the same thing, but when you look at the overhead there's room and no contact (see the NBC site for overhead views)

Speaking of Hard Spun, how can you not love Larry Jones? I particularly like the quote where he says he told Borel if he goes to the left of Hard Spun, he's going to be running on the turf course.

http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=38874

LOL! Just so he doesn't get caught up with that like Woody Stevens did with Winning Colors in the Preakness...that kind of stuff is bad for racing!

Anybody have that overhead video saved somewhere? I am striking out on the NBC website.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmzjCLKTSKc

Can't really see on that vid...again, it wasn't a factor just something of interest!

What is the supposed conspiratorial reason for HS connections failing to even mention this (much less their failure to object)?

HS ran a great race, just a bit too fast early. The rest is crap.

Can you read or do you just like to make accusations? I think I clearly stated from the beginning that this was a non-issue merely something of interest. It COULD have been a problem but wasn't. Obviously the jock would have raised the issue if it would have impacted HS...SS was clearly by and winning the race. Nobody is saying anything other than it is part of the race and something interesting...would HS have finished a bit closer? Was he bothered even slightly? These are things to consider moving on to the Preakness!

Mario Pino should have flopped like Dennis Rodman. I've had horses taken down with acting jobs

Damm I lost 8K with HS getting beat, took a couple of days but I got over it. It seems like Jones just keeps emphasizing about that rail opening up. It's done, it suck I know, but he has to let it go.

I thought we had settled this issue but it has reared its head over on the about website. A fellow there named depalma is responsible for the quote at the beginning of this thread.

He claims that you can see the clipping on the overhead, which I am very doubtful of. I'll have to look at it again.

It has been pointed out that HS runs like this but subsequently it was pointed out by others on about, that a) he did not run like that in the Lanes End and b) he did not bob his head like that on a regular basis in the derby only when changing leads. (depalma on the latter)

I clearly saw HS on the video bow his head before reaching the far turn. Right after the announcer calls out SEdgefield and Teuf. Whta I am not sure of is whether HS is doing this every so often on the backstretch. THought he was but the buildings get in the way. Depalma is sure he didnt do this and only does this when he changes leads.

So the mystery deepens.

THe comment by Tector I dont see as meant to be antagonistic but rather a question as to whether if this was really a clipping some objection would have been voiced. I.e. since the jock didnt object probably it didnt happen, i.e it is circumstantial evidence that it didnt happen. I think that's a fair pt. .

Damn, I lost 0.00K by HS getting beat....and I still can't get over about how the rail opened up for SS.

Jones might stop emphasizing it sooner or later....but, I would think it's something that will always be in his head for the rest of his life.

Look on the ESPN horseracing site. I think their video is the same as the NBC video. Shows the overhead just as the horses are rounding the turn into the stretch and Street Sense is making his big move.

My point was meant to question the logic of the author of the post originally posted elsewhere--if this incident, in fact, happened, logic would seem to dictate that SOMEBODY connected to HS would be complaining about it. I take their silence to be a tacit omission that it did not occur.

Peace be with you. Or, as Harvey used to say, may the horse be with you.

Pino didn't say a word about any contact Saturday night when discussing the trip. You'd think it would have come up had there indeed been even the slightest brush or clip...

Maybe horse got a little scared when SS came into his path, obviously he was tired, maybe he was a little sore. Who knows why he made that heavy switch, I dont think it was made by contact.

Watch the overhead again. It appears the SS's TAIL caught HS's nose when he crossed over. He flips his nose like they do when hit with a whip.

Again, when I started this thread, I clearly stated that it had no (zero, nada) effect on the race, Pino didn't claim foul or even mention it...it's just something of interest.

Since it is clear from watching the overhead that they did not touch, no claim of foul, no effect on the race, etc, what is so interesting about it?
Thats what I don't get.

At the time I posted it, I was going on the content of the article (post from another board). What I originally found interesting were two things: (1) jock cut it close and that is something to consider down the road and (2) if HS was slightly bothered (regardless of whether there was any contact) it might elevate his performance slightly making it useful when looking at the Preakness. I thought when I watched the race live that SS came over very quickly...again, no effect on outcome but something to remember...if SS does the same thing in the Preakness, it could be a worrisome pattern when looking at the Belmont. Again, probably nothing just a tidbit of info that I found interesting...what others think is out of my hands.

where can i find that overhead (not youtube versions)?

try www.nbcsports.com

I have the entire NBC show on tape and also I may have the Churchill feed as well.
On the pan shot HS appears to bobble or clip heels but after watching the overhead shot again yesterday, I'm convinced that HS ran into SS's tail. I ride horses and have been smacked by swishing tails (insert your own joke here) and it stings. Certainly HS would snap his head back after running into a rival's tail.

Thanks...I have checked NBC a couple of times but can't seem to pinpoint where the overhead only shot would be. Ive seen it on youtube but they are very grainy.

I'll keep looking. I was also wondering if anyone had a podcast of the race or how I could get it from NBC to my MP3.

not worth all the effort 31....i noticed hard spuns 'bobble' when street sense came in front, but in watching the overhead, there's no reason--unless as someone said, street senses tail tickled him. he didn't clip heels--maybe switched leads poorly. but street sense wasn't the cause.

Oh I really don't think it an issue since no one cried foul. I just really like the overhead and want to get it on my MP3. If anyone knows how to do this, please let me know.

Thanks for the insight.

oh ok

t'bred times has some video links on their site, but not sure the overhead would be one of them...

Try viewing about 2 strides after they have passed the 1/8th pole. I.e. they are less than 220 yards from the finish. This according to decarlo on the other site who claims he can see them clip on the overhead.:rolleyes:

Eh, I think all anybody's seeing is the bobble but that's not the same as clipping heels. The jock absolutely would've called foul. And how come the only place I've heard about it is online? All they talked about on tv (NBC and ESPN) was that he came in just a bit as he was going by. No attempts to find a clipping that happened. They love that blimp of theirs. Don't think they wouldn't have have jumped on a chance to use it.

Much ado about nothing.

No, I agree w/ you but I was just pointing out where to look in the video because 31lengths wasnt sure at what pt. in the overhead the incident occurred.