Poly Prepping
 

I wonder what the trainers who prepped over the polytrack think about it now? I would say its a no brainer... to run on dirt you prep over the dirt.

Hmmm...

Last time I checked, the horses that finished 1-2 had their last prep over the polytrack. If you're talking about training over dirt before a dirt race, I'd have to say that I probably agree with you... a work over the race surface certainly didn't hurt Street Sense or Hard Spun.

3 out of the top 5 had their final prep races on the poly...

Why is that ? Hard Spun prepped over poly.

Sounds like the logical thing to do, but as said before the top runners prepped mostly on the poly...There goes that argument..

But I believe top five finishers all had final work over Churchill strip

Oh yeah this makes tons of sense.
Of course as you are well aware, there were two standout performances in the derby, Street Sense and Hard Spun. Street Sense had his final derby prep on the poly in the Blue Grass. Hard Spun ran his final prep on the poly at Turfway in the Lanes End. My guess is that both trainers have no problem with poly given the results on Saturday.

It is total folly on your part to keep looking for the big poly fiasco.

I'm fairly certain he's talking about horses who trained over the Churchill surface before running the Derby. Obviously, he didn't word it correctly.

Horses that had their final work over the CD surface include Street Sense, Hard Spun, Curlin, Imawildandcrazyguy, Sedgefield, Sam P., Zanjero, Dominican, Storm in May, Teuflesberg and Bwana Bull. (I may be missing a few, but those are the ones I remember.)

It seems that having a final work over the surface assisted the first 5 finishers unless it's coincidental.

obviously though the argument can be made that this is no different from any other time when it is beneficial to work over the track where the race is held...regardless of surface.

Agreed... makes complete sense to do that.

precisely, its been done on dirt tracks as long as I can remember. Some trainers do it, some don't. Some horses need it, others don't.

you obviously need to have a trainer or jockey with a southern accent to be in the derby exacta.

I really hate the phrase "Derby Prep." Makes it sound like the trainer is just practicing for the Derby. Anyway, I think we will find that trainers will want their horse as sound as possible come Derby day. And if you believe that running on Poly or any other Synthetic surface if healthier for your horse then why not have your final prep on a synthetic surface rather than a dirt surface. Then give you horse a work and some gallops over the dirt surface. Bailey and Moss made a point on ESPN that made sense to me...they basically said that the synthetic surface is so forgiving that the horse just bounces over the surface therefor not giving the proper conditioning the horse needs.

The Derby is a unique race where horses have to be 100% fit to win. Prepping horses over the poly where they do not have to work as hard as they do over the dirt is not going to work if you train as though you are training over dirt. Pletcher screwed up because he trains almost all of his horses in the same manner regardless of the horse or surface. Pretty much you are going to get 5 furlongs in between 59 and 102 in company 6-8 days apart. That is fine in most races especially when you have talented horses. Many good horses can win by being 95% fit but the Derby, Triple Crown races and Breeders Cup to an extent are different animals. Circular Quay had 5 works between his race on March 10 and the Derby on May 5th. Between March 14 and Derby day the winner had 6 works and 2 races. How can a horse be fit enough to win going 1 mile and 1/4 against the best of his generation with this type of preperation? We have been using the rule of thumb that polyworks are about a second and a half faster than dirt works which means a 100 five furlong poly work is equal to about 101.3 on the Dirt. My horses seem to be about that much faster working 4 and 5 furlongs over the poly than they do over dirt regardless of class level. If you are going to work exclusively over the poly to prepare for a race like the Derby, you better adjust and do a whole lot more than you would on the dirt.

Good post Cannon and thanks for the info.

Good stuff Chuck...

then maybe they are saying to prep for the derby you Run on Poly, ie street sense, hard spun, sedgefield

its a unique situation for each horse.

Street Sense could have prepped anywhere. It was just a matter of not being too muddy, Pletcher not smashing him with cowtown cat at the break, and then not getting cut off or sent 10 wide on his late run. - No advantage


Hard Spun - he has some major turf in his pedigree and the lanesEnd set up like a dream prep. His action was nice over the polytrack and he flys over it. The race was cheap enough for him to dominate, but fast enough early to properly prepare him. It was a good spot after the southwest, and it didn't hurt that he loved the surface and could concentrate on simply re-establishing his form.

Sedgefield - He never ran on dirt so it was either turf or synthetic , and his last race prior to the derby was turf - no big deal.

Dominican - It helped me for him to run in the bluegrass because it gave the illusion that he could get 10 furlongs.

Zanjero - not a big deal he closes anyway

Great Hunter - possibly hurt him, because he got taken out of the action part of the race and didn't get anything from the prep.

Tueflesberg - should have helped general form because he Prado did so well to rate in the bluegrass , but you need to be a contender first before you worry about little details

perhaps the good ones can run over either or....but unlike hard spun, does street sense actually have a win over poly?

the danzig line only strengthened, a tri-surface sire! hard spun will be worth his weight in gold.

Or maybe two quality horses managed to find the short way around in a race that was adding distance. Love to see a trackus on this one.

I've always said that if I had a horse pointing to the BC Classic, I would make his final prep be in one of the 8f grass races like the Oak Tree Mile, Shadwell, or Kelso. Those kinds of races are run strongly enough to help your horse get the conditioning he needs. Take some edge off, get some conditioning, and more importantly, it's more forgiving than running in one of those traditional dirt preps. Poly isn't grass but it seems that they play similar.

Note the difference in Hard Spun's work at KEE.. 1 mile.. not 4 or 5f.. Larry Jones said that work was important because he needed the colt to get something out of it with what was going to be a 6 week break between Turfway and Churchill. He said Saturday night that Hard Spun came out of that work 'blowing pretty good for 15 minutes', and that he knew he had gotten what he wanted.. He then sharpened Hard Spun's speed with the :57.3 blowout over the race surface.

There will certainly be future Derby winners that make the Lane's End and/or Blue Grass their final preps and work up to the race at KEE. But that winner will have been trained with the adjustments required to reach and maintain the appropriate fitness level required to perform to maximum capacity in the Derby, each horse's first attempt at 10f... (Something the guy with 5 horses fails to comprehend.)

meaning that the guy knows that this particular horse needed to do more...be very careful making blanket statements based on the performance of ONE horse...


BTW, when did you get you trainer's liscense?

A lot easier to know a particular horse in your barn when he's one of 25-30.. A little harder when he's one of 386 at one of 11 shedrows across the country.


Recently completed the University of Phoenix Online degree program.. I should have 250-300 head in no time.

which is why the best help is employed, I think john may have said it best to you yesterday on your show...Lukas didn't touch all the horses everyday either....you know who did that for him? Pletcher.

And Mark Hennig.. And George Weaver..

But Lukas WAS indeed hands on as he always had his TC horse(s) near him as soon as they were identified while Jeff Lukas headed up the rest.

And Maker


I did mean the final prep (work) for the top 5 wasnt over poly. Im starting to like the poly.

Here is what Oneill said in the DRF on things he learned.

Second, O'Neill recognized that the first five Derby finishers all had their final workout at Churchill Downs. Great Hunter and Liquidity had their final workout at Keeneland, something O'Neill would do differently next time. He said the Derby ordeal was both fun, and frustrating.

Thats just for the smartasses who had to jump in on this thread.

O'neil's horses were bombs for a reason, and likely would have finished up the track no matter where they ran their final workouts. Great Hunter had a horrible post and Liquidity just didn't belong in the race.

Street Sense, Hard Spun and Curlin were the favorites to win the derby based on talent alone and likely would have performed well no matter what surface they did their final work on.

The guy felt he made a mistake, and in retrospect he obviously did, as did anyone putting in a final work over the polytrack. Jim, whether you felt they had a chance or not Mr Oneill thought he made a mistake. Im sure most guys who didnt put in their final work over CHD are now second guessing themselves.