Flag Burning
 

Good to see the Congress has taken time to debate such a far reaching immediate problem that is so clearly a ticking time bomb.

What a flippin joke waste of time...
Frikkin political garbage. Orin Hatch, whos intellect I respect, has just fallen about 30 rungs on my ladder.

Serve the people not your reelections... pieces of refuse, honest to God.

Honestly, Pat, no one wants to see "Old Glory" go up in smoke and flames.
So isn't it safe to run on a record of support for the flag than discuss the real failures that might need to be addressed?
Or...is this a "smoke screen"?

Man, I'm glad I'm not the only one who rolled my eyes when this came up...In Seattle we have a great liberal cartoonist named David Horsey, and he came up with a doozy the other day:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/horsey...te.asp?id=1407

Why is it that this administration and Congress are completely opposed to government intervention *unless* it involves your private lives and personal morals? Shouldn't they care about bigger things, like maybe our skyrocketing debt? (Yes, that goes for liberal roll-over legislators, too.)

Irish,
That's one of the best cartoons I've seen in a while. LOL!
DTS

Bush is naked in a cartoon.

Clinton actually masturbated in nearly every room of the White House.

Take your pick.

While I was openly critical of Clinton's morals (or lack thereof), I'd rather have his leadership right now! I voted for Bush...and I was wrong! He's shown that he has no comprehension of the real world and is just another supporter of the rich and powerful...I was an idiot...but I'm better now!

Both families are awful. I wish they would both go away. 20 years of idiots and liars. Any idiot that would vote Hillary Clinton and 4 more years of these terrible families should lose their right to vote. Can you imagine a quarter of a century with two families running things. Disgusting.

Very funny...Bush isn't running the show. Cheney is.
Bush is just a "mouth piece".
Now that the NY times has revealed another disregard for the Constitution,
remember "free press"?...it's time to accuse this new paper of "treason".
What a joke.
DNS ignoring laws on orders...outing Valerie Plame...who else to blame?
Gays and flag burners....time to divert attention folks.
Let's just talk about something else besides the dismal failures and corruption.

Let me guess, typical NY liberal. You people have destroyed the Democratic party with your "we are smarter than everybody" attitude. Dick Cheney doesn't run things, corporate america runs things. The morons like Clinton and Bush have let corporate america take over everything. As for flag burning, I served and I think people should be allowed to burn it, but only a mentally ill person would do it. The flag stands for the values of america, not the people running it. However, the bill is the house should pass. It would bar condominium and homeowner associations from restricting how the flag can be displayed. People should be able to put the flag wherever they want. It is the liberal elitist hypocrisy at work once again. Free speech as long as they agree with it. The NY Times is trash too. Lets have a paper that claims to care about the poor and working class, but make sure we take the advertising money from Tiffany so we can tell everyone they are nothing without the latest $25,000 watch for Tiffany. Liberals are killing the democratic party from their million dollar homes in Nantucket.

Liberal NYer? Nice try!
I'm an independent, and believe more with libertarian philosophy...
I guess you missed my point.
I don't like burning the flag...makes me sick to my stomach.
As does the present administration, with their attempt to divert attention from their failed policies.

that cartoon is fantastic!! And I'll say it for you guys--i'm a liberal.
But come on how can you not see a new flag burning debate as just deflection from all of the current administration's failures? And for the record this liberal is totally against flag burning.

If you are siding with the NYT on this one you are a liberal. That is garbage what they did. This administration is corrupt to the core, but what the NYT did was take out their personal dislike on the president by writing an article that should not have been run. Take off the tarian and add al and that is what you really are.

I have no love for liberals either (Phil Ochs' song, "Love Me I'm A Liberal" said it best!), all for equality and social justice till it comes to their neighborhood! Corporate America has ruled this land for far too long...perhaps the founding fathers were right and we need an actual revolution (hopefully bloodless). I still think Plato had it right with his idea of "Philosopher Kings"....power must somehow be connected to compassion instead of greed and instead of the next Political Bozo, we need an intellectual who believes in fairness, equality and human dignity....

The flag burning has little to do with the administration, it is more the congress. The administration uses their wacko religious/idiotic views on things like gay marriage when they want to get people distracted. The flag burning issue has been around forever and July 4 is always a good time to bring it up. The fact is it probably would be nice to see it hit the states to see if they can get the 2/3 vote. Americans might actually wake up and pay attention to an issue.

Well, exceller, you can label me what ever you want.
I didn't attempt to label you for your views.
I believe that the Constitution is a very important document...disagree if you want, you're entitled.
But when Bush put his hand on a Bible and swore he's uphold it, and then attacks a newspaper for excersing "freedom of the press"...seems a bit "problematic" to me.
Talk about the issue....not me.

DTS

The worse thing about liberals is they actually pretend to look out for the little guy but they are led mostly by elitist NYers and SFers that fly around in private jets telling americans to conserve oil. They have killed the working class part of the democratic party. They benefit from fiscal policies like this administration, although they complain every single one takes the tax cut. The worse thing about them though is that they allow people in this administration to run circles around them and then they say how stupid bush is. Gees, the guy has been crushing the democratic party for years now. Nancy Pelosi doesn't represent average people, she is an elitist. Lets get some new leadership in there.

Fine, you are a libertarian. The NY Times has acted like the mouthpiece of the Democratic Party for too long. It is your typical elitist liberal paper. Rich people who think the average american is too stupid to think for themself. Where is Truman when we need him.

Exceller,
Now you're putting words in my mouth.
The average American can certainly think (and vote accordingly) for themselves. I NEVER said they couldn't.
I DO think that any newspaper, ANY, has a responsiblity to excersise their right to inform the public they sell papers to. That right is constitutionally protected.
I AM stating that the Repubs, because they control both houses, set the agenda...what is to be discussed.
Pgardn said so much when he started this thread. Go back and reread it.
The present administration is "shooting the messenger" for providing the message...yet ANOTHER diversion from their failures.
Now, should we talk about gay marriage, flag burning, school prayer, "illegal aliens"???????
In my humble view, many see right through these vain attempts to divert attention. Just like I saw through your valiant attempt to label my views.
Stick to the issue (no "name calling"). Doing otherwise denies the wisdom of my words and evidences your lack thereof.
DTS

Very little wisdom in your words. Sounds like you are one of those that kneel at the altar of Maureen Dowd and Tom Friedman. ;)

DTS, agree with everything you say, although I am a liberal (although I refuse to join the Democratic party, so there ya go).

BB, we will obviously never agree on anything political, but I really don't care about Clinton and his private sex life. I do care about wiretapping, climate change and the deficit. I'd vote for *any* politician who actually did something for the voters instead of for a select group of donors.

Exceller, to quote:
"The worse thing about liberals is they actually pretend to look out for the little guy but they are led mostly by elitist NYers and SFers that fly around in private jets telling americans to conserve oil. They have killed the working class part of the democratic party."

I could rewrite that and swap "liberals" for conservatives and "democratic" for Republican, and we'd have the same thing...except I suppose Republicans tell us to burn oil instead of conserve it. Neither party is sacrosanct, and both have abandoned most of their constituents, if you ask me...but most of my friends are liberal, and we are anything but rich or from NY or SF (although what exactly is wrong with being from a big city?? Cities are part of this country, too). I get a little tired of the liberal elitist stereotype. Yes, I'm educated. So are a lot of your conservative pundits -- they're Ivy Leaguers, for Pete's sake! They have private jets, too! They aren't exactly helping the working class in New Orleans, or anywhere else. Are you telling me that Tom DeLay and co are any less elitist/wealthy/powerful than the Democratic leaders? Neither side is comprised of "average" Americans, the last time I checked.

I think the NYT was spot-on. We have a right to know what's being done in our name, particularly when you can't actually jeopardize the operation because the banks are under subpoena and have to comply anyway. I think terrorists are smart enough to know we're probably monitoring international financial and communications channels anyway, and I'll take freedom of the press over communist-style suppression in the name of state security any day (I've been to Cuba, and we don't want to go that way).

I *love* my country. I'm away now and miss it like I never imagined I would. I just don't like the way it's headed, and last time I checked I still had the right to say so (although 'Pent would probably come to get me if he were around here...lol).

Oops, should probably mention that I hope this is still a friendly debate because I enjoy these sorts of things! Internet intentions are hard to read, but Exceller et al, please don't take my comments as personal attacks. Just political banter. :) Must go to bed now, so good night, all!

Exceller,
Two questions and a demand for an apology.

1) Why the continuous insults for voicing my views?
2) Is this you?

http://forums.espn.go.com/espn/messa...ageID=23502724

I haven't insulted your opinions.
I haven't attempted to "put you in a box".

If you think you can stay on the topic of this discussion (not ME!!!!!), I'll continue to dialogue.
If not, you need to take a course at Bowling Green about freshman debating.
Answers and apology expected.

DTS

I am not aligned with a political party.

I am just stating that CONGRESS is waisting this country's time on such drivel. Its just stupid. Take care of real business. This stupid posturing is for clowns. I think we have just a few more important issues than Flag burning.

Oh yes, I was just thinking about it the other day. Was worried to death that someone might come out and burn the flag on my garage.

LOL Pat,
I still haven't gotten the apology I demanded, nor an explanation for why Exceller kept going off topic to attack me and not address the issue.
He kept going after me rather than discuss the issue you presented.
Since Oracle (Mike), the prime focus of their study, wasn't arround today, seems like Kingofturfway found a way on to this board to deal with me.
He's been posting like crazy on the old espn board. He even bragged that Resolution and Timely Writer would be back after July 4th.
My guess is that they got the funding to continue their "study".
You can bet they won't use their same names here.
The tactics are EXACTLY the same as before.
For sure, their names won't be.
They must think we're very stupid.
Different board, same methods.
DUHH!

Exceller's silence is deafening.

If you read this Exceller (Kingofturfway), apologize first. Answer the questions next.

Everyone else, we already know more than we did before...flush the rest of them out....FLUSH!
Same tactics, different board.

Insults gain no favor.

DTS

This entire thing is ridiculous. How often are flags burned anyway? I blame the politicians, but the media throws gasoline on the fire. This is the type of government you get when people don't vote.

I wanted to be Kingofturfway. I thought me and ArlJim were fighting it out for that title. I see DTS is off his meds again. Kidding DTS, although I can hear the next conspiracy theory coming.

You know it's an election year when they trot out this old chesnut. Like Pgrdn implied we should all be so thrilled that they're working on the important issues of the day! lol How much flag burning is going on anyway? What about other forms of flag disrespect? If burning is banned what about soiling the flag with excrement. That would also be repugnant to Americans. Would we need another ammendment to handle that?

Personally I'd rather live in a country were such things are allowed even though the act is deemed repugnant and disresptful by most everyone.

On the political spectrum I'm rather hawkish on security/defense issues, conservative on financial issues, and tolerant to liberal on social issues.
Generally have been aligned much more with Republicans over the years but they have just lost their way since they took over congress.

Is there a NY Times thread related to the leak? This one has my blood boiling and I'm ready for a million man march on NY to protest outside of the NY times building. I want to see zealous prosecution of this offense like they did when they went after the leaker in the Valerie Plame case.

The amendment vote failed by a single vote.

An apology you demanded? That is the funniest thing I ever heard. My silence is deafening? Maybe I should have skipped the auction yesterday and wasted my time talking to some complete simple minded guy who plays with cheap claiming horses in NY. Not all of us have 24 hrs a day to screw around talking about horses. Get a life.

My politics are similar to yours but I am more of a conservative democrat. I don't like big business running everything.

Off his meds, LOL. I don't think he ever remembered to take them to begin with. This is a political thread but he likes to cry like a baby and demand apologies. Typical liberal.

"Old Glory lost today," said Senator Bill Frist, the majority leader, who scheduled the debate and vote in the week before Congress broke for its Fourth of July recess.

Bill Frist now enters my list of bovine residue senators.
Give me a break. What a pile of crap.

Military folks correct me if I am wrong: You guys do not pledge allegiance to a flag, you pledge allegiance to the constitution, a set of ideas... correct?

The flag burning issue is not a big deal with members of the service, primarily because you never really see it. There are a lot though that feel that if you are going to make it illegal to burn a cross or paint a swastika then you should make it illegal to burn a flag. I am not in that camp, but I understand it. Flag burning is a lot less about Republicans playing poltics though than most people think. Senators get a ton of mail from constituents wanting the amendment so they push it.

As for the Military Oath of Allegiance, it is not techically a pledge to the constitution, but a pledge to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. There are a few annoying elitist liberals out there that take exception to the last line of the oath, but you don't find them signing up anyway, so nobody ever raises an objection to the "So Help Me God" line.

Yes. Thats it. Makes much more sense to pledge to uphold a set of ideas, rather than a symbol. And part of our set of ideas is a little self expression. It really does not bother me that Americans burn flags. I happen to love our set of ideas, so let them express away. Its a hypocritical act, makes flag burners look a bit foolish IMO. But it really does not bother me personally as it is a symbol. Now you start screwing around with our democratic ideals, I have problems with that. (Basic liberties, rule of law, majority rules but not to the exclusion and persecution of minorities, etc...) This is really what sets us apart. Even though it is quite clearly not perfect.

Yes, the problem with burning flags is simply that is makes no sense. If they don't like politicians they should burn pictures of them. Burning the flag is the act of a coward, but cowards should have that right. Flag burners are usually just self-centered attention seekers. They know that nothing good comes out of burning a flag, but is easier for them to do that than to actually work to change things for the better.

LOL!!!
Only one thing is FLAMING on this thread.
I know who he is. Can't find the topic, can't find the logic or valid arguements.
Can find the insults, can find the bottle, can find the names.
Zero credibility.
FLAMING!
And down goes the Repubs nice try...more FLAMES!

Cry babies...out of office you go!

... And you know the Bush administration is sweating when they try to turn something that has been in Public Domain knowledge since 2002 into a "Traitorous New York Times!" issue. ArtJim, the following is from Salon.com. What I can't figure out is how the rest of the media continues to let the Bush Administration get away with turning this BS into major stories, distracting from what SHOULD be major stories. Anyway... here you go:

<<Is it a leak if it wasn't a secret in the first place?

George W. Bush has said that it was "disgraceful" for the media to report that the United States is monitoring bank transactions. Republican Rep. Peter King has called for a criminal prosecution of the reporters involved, and the National Review has demanded that the White House revoke the New York Times' press credentials.

There's just one little problem here. The transaction-monitoring program described by the Times and other media outlets wasn't much of a secret anyway. As the Boston Globe reports today, "public records -- government documents posted on the Internet, congressional testimony, guidelines for bank examiners, and even an executive order President Bush signed in September 2001 -- describe how US authorities have openly sought new tools to track terrorist financing since 2001."

Among those records is a public report prepared for the United Nations Security Council in 2002, a report that specifically acknowledged that the U.S. government was monitoring transactions through the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Communication, or SWIFT. "The United States has begun to apply new monitoring techniques to spot and verify suspicious transactions," the report said, and it recommended that other countries begin to do the same.

One of the report's authors, a former U.S. diplomat named Victor Comras, tells the Globe that the United States has "spent the last four years bragging [about] how effective we have been in tracking terrorist financing." Unless terrorists were "pretty dumb" Comras says, they had to have known all along that the U.S. government was watching their financial transactions.

So is the reaction from the right a little overblown? Roger Cressey, who worked as a senior counterterrorism official at the White House until 2003, seems to think so. "There have been public references to SWIFT before," Cressey tells the Globe. "The White House is overreaching when they say [the New York Times committed] a crime against the war on terror. It has been in the public domain before." >>

I here ya, and I'm sympathetic but I just don't find many people I admire on the Democratic side or who hold consistent views. I think big business has infected both sides of the isle.

Pander, Pander, Pander

Even so, the program was bearing fruit. If you had the time to follow every public statement and document you could maybe have drawn inferences that such activity was going on. I certainly assumed that we were doing creative things like this. It was still basically a secret program, you can't say it was common public knowledge like it is now. The Times put it on the front page and described what was going on and how it worked and that it was aimed at tracking terrorists. The funny part is that they'll still continue doing it and will probably still catch people.

My problem with the Times is that were begged by the government to keep quiet and despite there being no real problems with the program, they thought the best thing to do would be to expose it. It would almost appear that they want us to lose. These are some of the only ways we can get information about what these people are doing.

Why did they publish this story? What was the public good for the US? And a blatantly political question, if the Times had come to know about the same program during a Clinton administration (Bill or Hillary) and President Clinton pleaded with them to not run the story, does anyone believe the story would have run. Not a chance in hell! So what that means is that they didn't do it for any noble right of the public to know all that goes on. It's our national security at stake, lives are at stake, yet they play politics.