Our great President
 

wants to veto a law against hate crimes committed against "gender" or "sexual orientation"

Why would he want to veto that bill??

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/05/...ill/index.html

I love how Mr. Bush looks out for the best interest in "his" country.

I've been following this pretty closely, and even the whole run-up to it was sick. The "family" groups have been lying about what the bill means, twisting transcripts to make it look like an anti-Christian bill and so forth. They've completely made the bill into something it wasn't to scare people into opposing it.

Andrew Sullivan says it best. It's disgusting, and there is no argument for opposing it outside of simply disliking, or hating gays.

Ist America, if they can be gay, you can dislike them.

Yep, and according to the federal government (post-veto), it's still more okay to kill them for being gay than it is to kill an African-American of a Catholic just for being black or Catholic.

It's not about liking them or not.

I would tend to agree with that. I dont want queer thrown in my face. If someone wants to be gay, they should do it on their own time, in the privacy of their own home. I dont want to explain to a child why 2 men are holding hands in the street.

Im glad he knocked the bill out.

Well, of course that's your prerogative to feel that way -- but that has nothing at all to do with the bill that was passed in the House yesterday. Our hate crime laws protect subsets of people based on their personal characteristics -- being black, a Muslim, a Christian, a Mexican, you name it -- they are protected from being attacked based on who they are. It doesn't matter if I want Islam "thrown in my face" or not, that's not the point of the law. This law, whether passed or not, will have zero effect on whether you have you explain to a child why two men are holding hands on the street. You'd still have to before the bill, and you'll still have to after the bill.

I haven't heard (from anyone) a good argument about why homosexuals should not be included under federal hate-crime laws.

Gays arent a race or religion, its a choice. I dont get any special privledge for being straight. What if a group of crazed gays attacked a guy like me, why wouldnt that be a straight hate crime?

Why is it more of a crime to hurt or kill someone(gay,black,muslim,etc.) out of hate then it is for sh!ts and giggles(premeditated randomness). Assault or murder(premeditated) should be the same charge no matter the race, religion or creed. Labeling things in our society has gotten way out of control...why do we label anything? To be able to separate and organize as we need just like socks. The more protesting, the more laws that are enacted, the more we feel we aren't being treated fairly = the more our everyday rights are being taken away as a whole society. Keep crying about how people are oppressed, treated unfairly, don't have equal rights and guess what...there won't be any rights to be bitching about cause Big Bro ain't far off from snatching them away. It's time the American people bent over and used their good eyes!!!

Are you kidding me? Whether or not you think homosexuality is a choice is irrelevant. Are you even thinking before you type? You're saying homosexuals choose to be gay, but Christians don't choose to be Christians? Religion is very much a choice, and still protected by these laws. So that argument it inherently flawed and nonsensical.

Does this happen often? No, in fact I'm not sure I've ever heard a story about a crazed group of gays attacking a man for being straight. Using that argument is setting up a worst-case scenario fantasy hypothetical straw man so that it's easier to tear down.

Hate crimes terrorize entire groups of people. When someone assaults a homosexual on the street just for being a homosexual in Chicago, it creates paralyzing fear in all homosexuals in Chicago when they walk on the street afterwards. FBI statistics show that 1 in every 6 hate crimes is motivated by sexuality. So while your straw man argument might seem like a logical conclusion to you, the fact remains that these things are already happening all over this country. And plenty of people yesterday exposed themselves in basically saying, "Yep, it's happening, and we don't care."

Only for this reason: Hate crimes terrorize entire groups of people.

I'm perfectly fine with your assessment that hate crimes shouldn't exist at all. That's a valid argument, and one that I have no problem supporting. Getting rid of them wholly is one thing, but if we're going to keep them and let certain groups have them (religion, races) but not a group that makes up ~16% of all hate crimes, something is very wrong.

If gays kept being gay to themselves they wouldnt get attacked.

Without really digging into that classy little bit up there, it seems pretty obvious that you haven't read the bill or know anything about other than that it has something to do with gays, so it must be bad.

The bill covers gays and non-gays alike. If someone attacks you (not gay) because they think you are gay (even though you aren't) and they carve the word F-A-G in your stomach, that's still a hate crime. If that were to happen, I'm sure there'd be lines of people standing around saying "If he would have just kept his gayness to himself this wouldn't have happened." That, by the way, is the same awful logic that says that if women would just wear pants and sweatshirts, they wouldn't get raped -- that it's their fault.

Foolish.

Hate crimes based on sexuality happen all the time. When I lived in Tucson, this gay man was beat to death a block from where I lived. Hit in the head like 60 times with a baseball bat for no other reason than he was gay. My ex-gf was beat up by a bunch of frat boys when she was on her was to see me just cause she "looked like a d***". These acts of violence effect the entire community, and terrorize the "gay" community.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of homosexuality, but why wouldnt you want people who are targeted for violence to be protected.

Brian

Whats wrong with a standard assult charge? Why does someones sexual orientation have to come into play at all.

Because there are other hate crime laws. If you're advocating that we repeal all hate crime laws, that's a different point and one that you're certainly entitled to make.

All you've argued so far is that gays are icky, should never leave the house with their partner, and that if they get killed they deserved it anyway, if I may sum up all your posts with one cogent sentence.

If hate crime laws exist, and they do, then homosexuality should very well be covered. What's wrong with a standard assault charge against a person who kills a Muslim (or someone he or she even thinks is a Muslim) in the street while shouting anti-Muslim racist filth at them? Laws are in place to protect those groups right now, because an attack like that would terrorize the entire Muslim community and not just the victim. If you've never been a part of a group that has been terrorized by a crime like that, you can't understand -- and that's fine, I wish that were the case with me. I think you're lucky if that's never happened to you.

The only real argument that can be made against this bill is that all hate crime laws should be eliminated -- in which case, it's time for everyone who opposed this bill to start calling their Congresspeople to make sure that they get right on that.

Gays shouldnt be entitled to any special rights, or laws. They should keep their sexual orientation to themselves and there would be a lot less beatings.

I never said gays are icky, I dont want homosexuality forced down my throat. If I wanted to see gay men touch each other Ill go to a Chip N Dale show.

Yes, all hate crimes should be eliminated, and they should elimiate affirmative action while they are at it.

man I wish the shoe was on the other foot for one week. All those ignorant "straights" would have a huge change of opinion.

I'm glad I have finally been able to meet (albeit, online) a real, live victim-blamer. I'd heard lots about them on certain blogs when people say that women who get raped were asking for it by doing certain things. I had just never really had the distinct pleasure of encountering one on my own.

I personally don't give a **** how anyone feels about how someone lives their lives, it will never be an excuse for hurting them. And this is the second time now that you've indirectly and intentionally excused gay-bashing by blaming it on homosexuals. Of course, advocating gay-bashing is your right, but it's just good to know how people really feel.

These two go together. If gays shouldn't be entitled to "special rights" granted by hate-crime bills, neither should Christians or African-Americans or Muslims or Mexicans.

Don't go bunching all straight people in that category...

Hey, don't generalize. That's the fastest way to turn it us vs. them, and there are a hell of a lot of them who don't blame gays for gay-bashing and plenty of them who see the problem with this bill getting vetoed.

I also dont think they should be able to adopt children or get married.

I refuse to hate someone for their choice in religion or sexuality. I may not always agree with another person's choice, but there is absolutely NO reason to hate another person for their choice in the above two categories. To place blame on a person for someone else attacking them is ludicrous. I don't give a flying phuck WHAT they are doing in public... NOBODY deserves to be attacked for choosing a certain religion or sexuality. I could give two shiats what another person chooses... it has ZERO to do with my choice and is not harming me (or my child.)

I guess I used the "" in the wrong part. I meant all the "ignorant straights" not that all straights are ignorant! I know better!!

Jamie

You are comfortable taking you kid around a couple gays cuddling at a park? You wouldnt find it offensive if two men kissed in front of your son?

And how is this hurting you?

Well... I know several gay couples who have adopted children and I can assure you that they are better parents to those children than most parents in a 'normal' situation. I think that if the child is treated with love and respect, fed and clothed and taught moral values then it's OK. It's a popular misconception that a child raised in a gay environment will 'turn' gay. I believe it's more hereditary. I have about (give or take a few) ten gay friends... because I hang out with them, does that make me gay? The last time I checked, I was straight as an arrow...

No more offensive than a straight couple doing it... either way (you obviously don't have children), I have to explain to my child what is going on. Would I have a problem if they were having sex in the park? Yes... and I'd have a problem with it if there was a straight couple having sex in the park. I think you're reaching here, R...

Since when is teaching moral values accepting homosexuality?

It hurts me because it hurts the children.

Its ridiculous to think a child has the capacity to understand homosexuality, they dont. It will cause confusion, doubt, insecurity, etc. I cant think of many situations worse than having a kid teased his entire life because he had two parents of the same sex. Can you imagine being that child growing up in school? I think instead of trying to be liberal and accepting, sometimes people have to have some common sense. Common sense will tell you thats not the environment to raise a child.

Im not reaching at all, if a straight couple was having sex in a park youd run them off, say something, or slap someone. If a gay couple was having sex in a park youd run them off, say something, or slap someone. Brian is saying thats a hate crime. I say its a well deserved beating.

And letting some cracked out whorehound raise the child IS?

You don't just wake up one morning and say... "Hey, I think I'll be gay." The same way you have an instinctual nature to be attracted to women (are you, by the way?), gay people have that instinctual attraction to members of their own sex.

By the way, please don't confuse me with being liberal... I am the farthest thing from. I just don't see how someone else being gay has a negative impact on MY life.

So you're saying that all gays are attacked because they're having sex in public? This isn't like someone is just saying something. People are being KILLED. BIG difference. Come on...

As long as I've been alive, I've NEVER seen gay people make any more of a spectical of themselves in public than straight people. Never. Gay people are attacked because of the way they appear. That's not right IMO.

It shouldnt have any impact on anyones life. Exactly my point, it should be kept behind closed doors. I dont care if someone is gay, I simply dont want to see it, and there shouldnt be any special laws for gays.

A drug addict, or abuser, or any other kind of unfit parent shouldnt be allowed to have children either. Its a gift to have a child, they deserve to be brought up in a sane environment.

Yes, I am attracted to women.

Um, not so much. Well played again though.

Seeing two men holding hands on a street, and following then home and killing them after screaming anti-gay obscenities at them on the street is a hate crime.

Running people off or "saying something" or "slapping someone" is not a hate crime, even if it's a Black Jewish South African Homosexual you just slapped.

Let me go get you some examples of what a hate crime looks like, since these concepts are clearly all hypothetical in your head.

:p

As for special laws, I'll be honest, I really don't know how I feel about that... I do know that I think it's reverse racism to have scholarships for african americans, hispanics etc. So maybe I agree with you on there being no special laws for any particular group. I think hate crimes should be outlawed PERIOD.

Of course I see where you're coming from. The run-up to the vote has been interesting to watch because I've been following it and what both sides have been saying about it.

I think that it speaks to your earlier post about the spirit of fairness and how other laws are already on the books. Of course there is always the potential that these laws will get interpreted very loosely by a DA, but there is the potential that they will get loosely interpreted when regarding race and religion as well, which is why I think your earlier post was very important. If there are no hate crime laws at all, that is very much one thing -- but if they continue to exist to protect certain subsets of the population, then I see no reason why they should not also protect a group who accounts for ~16% of all crimes that are already considered hate crimes (at the state level in states that already have these statutes on the books).

I just find it disingenuous that there are so many groups who are already covered by these laws that have people who say "all crimes are hate crimes," but do nothing to get their existing protections scrapped from the books. Those sorts of actions are what make proponents of this bill see those who vote against it and the president who veto it as homophobes or bigots -- because they are denying protection to a group who is very much attacked in the United States based on who they are, while they are enjoying protection from attacks based on who they are. Something doesn't add up there, and if it's not about homophobia or bigotry then what is it as long as we have other existing protected subsets on the books?

I've stayed out of this thread for a while, though I've enjoyed reading the opinions expressed.
I am not gay, but I have friends and family that are.
It seems to me that "hate" has origins in "fear".
When the fear is addressed, maybe the hate will be resolved.
Not likely, but one only hopes.
Here's an interesting article:
http://advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid44550.asp

The Jerry Falwells know exactly the "buttons" to push.
Unfortunately, the effectiveness of their "arguements" is equally as obvious and pathetic.


Also, if someone would go to page 3 of this and bring up "Honeybee news", since whatever I post doesn't come back to the top for some reason, and type a response, it would be much appreciated.


Now, lets go RACIN'!

I'm staying out of this argument because when I see hate and ignorance I tend to call folks on it and that only degrades the quality of a debate, Baba brings up good points and I agree that in a perfect world, we wouldn't need "hate crime laws" but obviously they are on the books so we have a simple choice: repeal them all or cover all "at risk" groups. When I read "being gay is a choice" or "they bring violence on themselves", there isn't much of a constructive nature I can say...children aren't born to hate they have to be taught, obviously some folks have been taught well and sadly, will probably pass it on to their kids. It remains a mystery to me why who sleeps with who is more important to folks than who is abusing, beating or killing who.

Its mental abuse being raised in a gay family.

You really are a bigot aren't you? Why do you hate gays so much? And please, don't bother to deny what your posts clearly show...