Questions for PointGiven1985
 

Hi PG!

DrugS and I were debating the merits of some horses from earlier this decade, and we had trouble agreeing on who were the better horses.

I'd like to get your opinion on these two matchups to help settle the argument.

Now, keep in mind, that these matchups are based on each horse being at the top of their game, and at a track and distance that are fair to all.

First, I say Empire Maker was better than Funny Cide, and he says Funny Cide was better than Empire Maker.

The other matchup would be Peace Rules vs Lava Man (IN CALIFORNIA!!). I say Lava Man, he says Peace Rules.

What do you think?

Of course I think Empire Maker was a better horse than Funny Cide and should have won the Eclipse.

Pg1985
 

I wouldn't take the bait.

Second post from this person targeting you. Why you?

He probably was the better horse but why in the hell should he have won the eclipse? Because he lost the Jim Dandy to Strong Hope?

Sorry dude, but the TC races are what really count, and unless a horse excels in the important later races during the year it is those races that matter. Winning the Sham carries very little weight. Without looking it up, how many can name who was second in the Florida Derby ( a strong group of six no doubt ).

The horse that was 2nd in the FLA Derby, Trust N Luck, ran a 110 Beyer at 2.

Empire Maker did not win the Sham stakes either.

I pretty much agree with the same case Crist made for EM winning the Eclipse. How he had a heads up winning record against everyone in that crop.

I was at Gulfstream as well.

Oh, Trust n Luck was a great monster ( and Cardus is right as to why he was favored ). Please DrugS, regale us with his great career accomplishments ( save the 110 Beyer ).

Sorry...yer right. I meant to say " third in the Sham doesn't carry a lot of weight.

I was confused, as I always felt Master David was robbed in 2004, when they completely ignored HIS devastion of the Sham field and gave the award, foolishly I may add, to Smarty Jones.

You also have to factor in that TNL was coming in off of two lopsided wins routing, one with a 110 Beyer in a Calder Stake at age 2, and the other in a Grade 1 race by a clear-cut margin.

Empire Maker, on the other hand, was coming into the race off a loss to Man Among Men in the Sham Stakes....when he was the victim of circumstances

The " Grade 1 " Trust N Luck won was a prep for a prep, known as the Fountain of Youth, which is now rightfully back to grade 2 status ( should be Grade 6 after this past weekend ).

I love how you give incomplete, and intentionally misleading, information when you know your point is weak.

I'll leave the rest to the true genius of this board PointGiven1985.....

As this thread was intended for him....

That's a really unfair comment.

I was explaining why the public made Trust N Luck the favorite over Empire Maker that day.

If you have a better explanation regarding that.....post it.

Part of it was that Empire Maker had proven absolutely nothing at that point and the rest of the field was utter garbage.

The other poster who mentioned the pace scenero is correct on that point, however, you don't think Trust N Luck's two races leading into the FLA Derby, didn't look good on paper?

And, by the way, it's totally fair. In this case you could have said he won the Florida Derby prep for this race ( at 10:1 I seem to remember ) and said it was the FOY. Instead you chose to ONLY refer to it as a " Grade 1 " which tells none of the story and only attempts to somehow elevate its status....as though the public was betting blindly on any Grade 1 winner.

i would say 8/10 empire maker would have defeated funny cide... the other one is bit harder

peace rules was a dead game horse, but in california i'd have to say lava man

It was a terrible field as I recall with only two contenders...and they finished one two.

Peace Rules in a romp in any state. The only reason Lava Man keeps in winning in California is because there is zero real competition in California.

Empire Maker was the best horse, but no way his wins trump the Derby/Preakness double. FC won the NCAAs, EM the NIT.

Oh come on, Supah Blitz and Senor Swinger were awesome horses.. It was an amazing field.

So, after winning a 2yo stake race by double digit lengths, with a 110 Beyer (has any 2yo ever run a Beyer that high in a route race since they've been published in the form?)

He was than 10/1 off that Performance in the Foutain of Youth....which he won by like 6 lengths?

I know you know you're earlier comment wasn't fair. It was pure bullshit. You know that.

trust-n-Luck? Who in Sam Hill give's a rat's a$$ about Trust n luck

It was nowhere close to BS and you have further proved my point with this drivel. " 400K 2YO stake race ". It was one of those bloated purse stakes at Calder that may well have been restricted to Florida Breds. How come you didn't include that more pertinent information?

If you weren't trying to prove this particular point you would be saying how he won the FOY by taking advantage of a bias.

Please, manipulating Trust N Luck's record to somehow justify that Empire Maker should have been 3YO champ is beneath you. If you want to use Crist's argument, fine, as while I don't agree with him at least he stuck to defendable reasons. Or, perhaps I'm wrong, and Steve also said Empire Maker was a deserving winner because he beat a " Grade 1 winner and conquerer of a $400K 2YO stake " while winning the Florida Derby.

I expect better from a high quality poster such as yourself. And, oh yeah, I'm jealous of your good looks.

I was thrilled, and hardly at all surprised, that Empire Maker dominated Funny Cide in the Belmont. I think there is zero doubt he was the better horse. However, he didn't deserve 3YO honors.


Any sane person knows Dynever deserved that Eclipse.

DrugS
 

I see even you were so embarrassed by the inclusion of " $400K " that you edited it out.

Set....match.

You can talk all you want about woulda's shoulda's coulda's or this one has the breeding and showd more potential. The fact remains Funny Cide won the Derby, won the Preakness came in third in The Belmont. Empire finished off the board in The Derby SKIPPED the Preakness and rested up to win the Belmont. Empire Maker lost a weaker Travers Prep in the Jim Dandy and Funny Cide went on to win the JCGC a year later.

Answer = Funny Cides Woulda's Shoulda's coulda's don't win THE DERBY and the JCGC.(arguably the two most important non BC races in the US) SORRY!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure it was part of the Florida Stallion series.

I also think that Empire Maker loses a few points for skipping the Preakness. He was not, however, off the board in the Derby.

friends lake ..a true monster that was gone before his time..lol

Empire Maker was second or third ( it was a nose either way to Peace Rules ) in the Derby.

I thought he came in Fourth if not my mistake, I might be thinking of Point Given.

The brilliance of Trust N Luck can be seen here...

Fountain Of Youth: http://www.equinevision.com/vsg/inde...o=performance1

What A Pleasure Stks: http://www.equinevision.com/vsg/inde...o=performance2

I got rid of the 400K part about five seconds after I hit the submit button...because I knew you would take it the wrong way...this has all been about what appears in the horses form on paper...it seems like you aren't understanding that.

I did nothing of the sort.

The post was in regard to why the public made Trust N Luck the favorite over Empire Maker in the betting.

Perhaps I should have just said the he ran Beyers of 110 and 106 in his last two starts, and the other lost to Man Among Men in the ungraded Sham Stakes...and mentioned the pace scenerio on paper.

The fact that I mentioned his prior win was a Grade 1 (and it was) in no way means I'm trying to mislead anyone about anything

The BS meter just exploded in my apartment.

Is it too late for you to do the one thing you are good at and get here with a pail?

Claim victory all you want....

But do know you went Andrew Golota on me in this thread.

If it makes you feel better....I will revise the 2003 Fountain Of Youth to Grade 2 status....even though it factually wasn't.

HEY! He was my derby horse... :o

I agree, he should have won the Eclipse hands down. :p :rolleyes:

This is the deepest field we have seen so far as a true derby Prep. The Hutcheson and The RB Lewis, both grade II's were better? The FOY was a damn good race.