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-   -   Bailout bill fails (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25332)

SniperSB23 09-30-2008 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
A real doomsday scenario? Imagine a world without credit. A completely cash world. Checks? No. All cash....for everything. Imagine what that would do to our economy. Imagine what that would do to the quality of American life. How safe of a world would that be?

If people can't see this as a real possiblity then i dont know what to tell you. If people can't imagine what that would do to our lives...
Wow, I'm terrified, so I can't get a new credit card? Holy crap, how will I ever survive? Doomsday me more Fu, come on, that was weak.

dalakhani 09-30-2008 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
Wow, I'm terrified, so I can't get a new credit card? Holy crap, how will I ever survive? Doomsday me more Fu, come on, that was weak.
Our entire economic system is built on credit. Basically, our economy would collapse. There would be widespread hysteria and panic followed by hunger and crime. The government would have to seize control of the country by force.

Even scarier then? Bush would stay in office.:p

SniperSB23 09-30-2008 11:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
Our entire economic system is built on credit. Basically, our economy would collapse. There would be widespread hysteria and panic followed by hunger and crime. The government would have to seize control of the country by force.

Even scarier then? Bush would stay in office.:p
MCCAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!! :eek:

dalakhani 09-30-2008 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
MCCAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!! :eek:
In all seriousness, when this started locking up last summer the cost of commercial paper and the Libor went through the roof. Back then, it was more a liquidity issue than one of solvency.

A year later, that has changed. With all of the losses over the last year, banks are hoarding cash now because its all they have. And if they don't have cash, what are they going to lend ? And if they won't lend to each other without charging ungodly rates, what will that do to rates to consumers?

SniperSB23 09-30-2008 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
In all seriousness, when this started locking up last summer the cost of commercial paper and the Libor went through the roof. Back then, it was more a liquidity issue than one of solvency.

A year later, that has changed. With all of the losses over the last year, banks are hoarding cash now because its all they have. And if they don't have cash, what are they going to lend ? And if they won't lend to each other without charging ungodly rates, what will that do to rates to consumers?
It's not a good situation, no doubt. I just think there's an incredible irony here that all the bigwigs invested heavily suddenly need the taxpayers to bail them out, yet when it comes to them giving more money to help those truly in need then we are suddenly becoming a bunch of socialists. I believe in the golden rule. And last I saw the golden rule doesn't say f*** over others so when you are in need they will save your ass. Let's make it fair, the taxpayers bail out the wealthy, and in turn the Bush tax cuts are repealed for the wealthy to help pay for it. Then I'm 100% on board.

dalakhani 09-30-2008 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
It's not a good situation, no doubt. I just think there's an incredible irony here that all the bigwigs invested heavily suddenly need the taxpayers to bail them out, yet when it comes to them giving more money to help those truly in need then we are suddenly becoming a bunch of socialists. I believe in the golden rule. And last I saw the golden rule doesn't say f*** over others so when you are in need they will save your ass. Let's make it fair, the taxpayers bail out the wealthy, and in turn the Bush tax cuts are repealed for the wealthy to help pay for it. Then I'm 100% on board.
Anyone who paints this as anything less than a bailout is being disingenuous and i hope i didnt come across that way. I think the tax payer can make money on this IF, big IF, they value the assets properly. Even so, it is still a "bailout" because any plan would require the govt to purchase the assets at above market prices. Before everyone starts crying, remember, market right now on a lot of those assets would be like 20 cents but thats simply because the market is an injured lion in the desert and the buyers are the circling vultures.

SniperSB23 09-30-2008 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
Anyone who paints this as anything less than a bailout is being disingenuous and i hope i didnt come across that way. I think the tax payer can make money on this IF, big IF, they value the assets properly. Even so, it is still a "bailout" because any plan would require the govt to purchase the assets at above market prices. Before everyone starts crying, remember, market right now on a lot of those assets would be like 20 cents but thats simply because the market is an injured lion in the desert and the buyers are the circling vultures.
Therein lies the problem. No one even trusts the government with a tiny if, not to mention a big IF. The chance of us ever seeing that money if Obama is elected is 10%. If McCain is elected it is 0%. Sounds like a great deal. Where is the negotiator for the taxpayers in all this?

dalakhani 10-01-2008 12:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
Therein lies the problem. No one even trusts the government with a tiny if, not to mention a big IF. The chance of us ever seeing that money if Obama is elected is 10%. If McCain is elected it is 0%. Sounds like a great deal. Where is the negotiator for the taxpayers in all this?
Its not a question of intent here in my opinion. Look, these are some complex financial instruments we are dealing with. Each security represents a portion of MANY different loans. The bank that owns the security doesnt have any relationship with the borrowers. How is the bank supposed to be able to determine the value of all of those different loans going forward? How is the govt supposed to determine a value for a security with rising balances backed by a depreciating assets where a payment shock will be occuring relatively soon? How are they going to accurately guess on likelihood of payment?

If I were voting, I would love to hear a set plan on how they would do this.

jwkniska 10-01-2008 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSB23
Wow, I'm terrified, so I can't get a new credit card? Holy crap, how will I ever survive?
won't just be for new ones. any in your pocket, along with any ATM cards immediately go too, as they'll all be declined.

people with money in the bank will be fine.... everyone living on credit will be out of luck. small businesses that buy almost everything on credit would go under and a ton of jobs will be lost also.

people that look at this as a wall street only bailout are totally clueless and are listening to way too much of the media's crap. I DO wish they wouldn't bail these companies out. Have them go under and take every single CEO/board of them and let each and every single one rot in jail. Loan them money if necessary for a time to be paid back with interest, yes, bailout with the gov't taking over and eating the bad paper, not a chance that's ok with me.

jwkniska 10-01-2008 09:43 AM
the other thing i'd like to see, is since congress is probably going to pass some sort of bailout for them.... is to have all of the members of congress give back the hundreds of millions of dollars that they've gotten from them.
prime example: Dodd, Frank and Obama getting almost ONE HUNDRED MILLION from fannie and freddie

won't happen, but would be a good idea (and that goes for both sides of the aisle in both houses of congress)

Bernardini 10-01-2008 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
Good. They deserve it. Gov't doesn't have the money to give. Either have to borrow it, or print it. So, for people (like myself) that have their money in dollars, the last thing we want our Gov't doing is printing more, and destroying 10-20% of our money's value. That's what this would do. Do I care that people won't be able to get loans? I live within my means for operating expenses. I care, but people need to get back to living off the money they have. THIS IS HOPEFULLY THE START OF AMERICANS LIVING WITHIN THEIR MEANS. Not just regular Americans, but the companies that they keep trying to scare everybody with. Everybody needs to wake up, and stop living off credit. I don't do that, and I am in no hurry to bail out companies that say they need credit. Stop giving your CEO 40 million a year while claiming you can't get money to cover daily operating expenses. Tired of it. I was made fun of for not putting my money in this or that. I refused. The people saying this has to be done are the same people telling me I had to invest in this or that. Too bad. I ain't for bailing you out because you gambled with your money in stocks , or anything else. That's one reason they tell you this has to be done(if you don't then they will lose money on their stocks etc.) FCK OFF.

I agree average joe should not bail out wall street fat cats, but we do need an immediate fix to stop the bleeding. You must understand that wall street drives main street and if this bailout does not go through average joes balls will be chopped off, fat cats will still be fat cats only a bit skinny. We can look for a long term solutions LATER.

dalakhani 10-01-2008 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkniska
the other thing i'd like to see, is since congress is probably going to pass some sort of bailout for them.... is to have all of the members of congress give back the hundreds of millions of dollars that they've gotten from them.
prime example: Dodd, Frank and Obama getting almost ONE HUNDRED MILLION from fannie and freddie

won't happen, but would be a good idea (and that goes for both sides of the aisle in both houses of congress)
Why do you keep trying to turn this into a partisan thing when it isnt? How about McCain's campaign manager that is STILL on the take from freddie?

Trying to spin this into a problem created by democrats is just silly just as saying its all to blame on the republicans and mccain for glass/steagall and deregulation.

People keep trying to simplify this and its not a simple problem. If fingers need to be pointed, this thread can go on for a long time.

dalakhani 10-01-2008 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernardini
I agree average joe should not bail out wall street fat cats, but we do need an immediate fix to stop the bleeding. You must understand that wall street drives main street and if this bailout does not go through average joes balls will be chopped off, fat cats will still be fat cats only a bit skinny. We can look for a long term solutions LATER.
Right on the money.

Bernardini 10-01-2008 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
Why do you keep trying to turn this into a partisan thing when it isnt? How about McCain's campaign manager that is STILL on the take from freddie?

Trying to spin this into a problem created by democrats is just silly just as saying its all to blame on the republicans and mccain for glass/steagall and deregulation.

People keep trying to simplify this and its not a simple problem. If fingers need to be pointed, this thread can go on for a long time.

I agree there should be no political spin, this is a deep rooted problem never addressed because profit and loss statements were looking brilliant. Now that the sh** hits the fan, it become everyones problem.

CSC 10-01-2008 11:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernardini
I agree there should be no political spin, this is a deep rooted problem never addressed because profit and loss statements were looking brilliant. Now that the sh** hits the fan, it become everyones problem.
I'm afraid this will be only a short time fix, it appears credit is tightening all around the world.

jwkniska 10-01-2008 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
I'm afraid this will be only a short time fix, it appears credit is tightening all around the world.
I think you're 100% correct there and actually, tightening credit in alot of situations is probably the long-term solution to the problem.
Most people now have access thru credit cards/multiple mortgages, etc. to a whole lot more money than they should have (me included... have it, but am smart enough not to use it unless necessary, and pay everything off ASAP). Alot of people think that just because they have access to credit, they can spend every last cent of it, which just gets them into financial trouble, especially if they miss a payment somewhere, as then their interest rates on everything skyrockets.

Some sort of quick fix is unfortunately going to be needed, in order for small businesses to keep going (most don't have huge cash reserves and buy most things on credit). Otherwise, unemployment's going up tremendously, due to all of these businesses closing, which would only make things a ton worse, as then, even more people will be defaulting on everything.

jwkniska 10-01-2008 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
Why do you keep trying to turn this into a partisan thing when it isnt? How about McCain's campaign manager that is STILL on the take from freddie?
those three got the most, which is why I listed them first. McCain's guys, especially the one campaign manager and the rest of the republicans/independents should to do the exact same thing, which is why I said right after that, that both sides of the aisle should put that money back into whatever bailout they come up with.

steve 10-01-2008 06:36 PM
wall street fat cats --- the ones that are hurt by this are the little investors that thought of buying stock in a company as owning a piece of america

pgardn 10-01-2008 09:18 PM
Senate passes it 74-25.

Back to the House.
Its a bit diff. but not signficantly imo.

hi_im_god 10-01-2008 09:54 PM
i ate too much fatty food and had a heart attack.

i'm not going on a diet so the only solution seems to be just letting my heart fix itself. and blaming my heart for taking all those deposits of yummy yummy fat.

hey retarded consumer! your politicians can't say it but you've been living way beyond your means. you borrowed all that money that isn't getting paid back.

nice house you couldn't afford. or could at one time until you borrowed yourself into the hole you're in.

i love how it's always someone else's fault. washington and wall street were enabler's. but you did this to yourself.

good plan on the no medical treatment. that'll teach the heart.


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