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The Indomitable DrugS 06-15-2008 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
We ran 4 BC races on the turf last year in soggy conditions that should have favored the euros yet they won zero.

The Filly and Mare Turf winner was imported and made her American debut at Belmont Spring last year.

Our turf horses are lucky to finish 9th with a perfect trip when they go long in Dubai each year.

hockey2315 06-15-2008 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcs11204
3 ? omg hockey i like you and all but 3, wow even 4 ?

rags to riches - no....curlin yes... street sense I never liked him but yes.... hard spun maybe

i could argue tiago no way... lears princess is this a joke? and lady joanee seriously? and grasshopper please stop.... as 3 yr olds.

...

Scurlogue Champ 06-15-2008 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Since the majority of our important racing has been on dirt and the euros almost never beat us there couldnt you say that they are inferior to us? As a matter of fact we beat them a hell of a lot more on the turf than they beat us on the dirt. I have seen lots of superior euros come here and lose. I have also seen lots of mediocre euros come here and improve, often bleeders due to lasix use. Are they superior also? We ran 4 BC races on the turf last year in soggy conditions that should have favored the euros yet they won zero. Of the last 13 BC turf races they have won 4, hardly dominant. I remember a horse named Var who was just a horse over here, was sent to France and became the top rated sprinter in Europe. Turf horses in this country are still not really desired and are considered 2nd class citizens at least until they show they can be stakes horses. to be fair there are a whole lot more good American turf horses than there are european dirt horses. If dirt racing was eliminated in the US and the breeders and trainers concentrated strictly on turf racing, the euros would soon be second class. And that is actually a plausible situation.

I can't argue with your points here, especially the last sentence.

But I must stick to my guns in saying that their top class on turf are superior to our top class on turf. I know the statistics from the Breeders' Cup, and last year's results were baffling to me.

I think a good example is Powerscourt coming over and making Kitten's Joy look like a crow in the Arlington Million. That was a horse that was third string for Coolmore, and absolutely stroked that race two years in a row.

On certain days, we can beat them on our home turf. But overall, I am strongly convinced that they are much better than our bunch.

Scurlogue Champ 06-15-2008 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
The Filly and Mare Turf winner was imported and made her American debut at Belmont Spring last year.

Our turf horses are lucky to finish 9th with a perfect trip when they go long in Dubai each year.

She was fairly common over in France... Not terrible, but not clashing heads with the best.

Cannon Shell 06-15-2008 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
The Filly and Mare Turf winner was imported and made her American debut at Belmont Spring last year.

Our turf horses are lucky to finish 9th with a perfect trip when they go long in Dubai each year.

And our horses rarely lose the dirt races there. There are different types of racing and to say our horses are inferior based upon distance turf races is wrong.

The Indomitable DrugS 06-15-2008 11:00 PM

They are vastly superior on dirt - that seems as obvious as them being vastly inferior going long on the turf.

Scurlogue Champ 06-15-2008 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
They are vastly superior on dirt - that seems as obvious as them being vastly inferior going long on the turf.

Agreed.

Grasshopper could have probably won this year's Dubai World Cup if Curlin wouldn't have gone.

Diamond Stripes isn't a top class horse over here, and he rocked them in the mile.

Sprint is no contest. That Indiana Downs shipper who won his eleventh in a row on Thursday at Churchill could probably win that one.

jcs11204 06-15-2008 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockey2315
...

hockey... use the drf plus... and go look at the horse's i named.... hard spun maybe ?
omg

jcs11204 06-15-2008 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockey2315
...

as a 3 yr old... grasshopper would have defeated big brown... his form is off now.

Cannon Shell 06-15-2008 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ
I can't argue with your points here, especially the last sentence.

But I must stick to my guns in saying that their top class on turf are superior to our top class on turf. I know the statistics from the Breeders' Cup, and last year's results were baffling to me.

I think a good example is Powerscourt coming over and making Kitten's Joy look like a crow in the Arlington Million. That was a horse that was third string for Coolmore, and absolutely stroked that race two years in a row.

On certain days, we can beat them on our home turf. But overall, I am strongly convinced that they are much better than our bunch.

We can pick examples out all night. Lure was better than any turf miler I have seen from Europe and Manila is at least as good as any euro I have seen period. But that doesnt mean much. Obviously the euros have top turf horses and different style racing but I disagree with the idea that european horses are superior on the whole than American horses.

Scurlogue Champ 06-15-2008 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
We can pick examples out all night. Lure was better than any turf miler I have seen from Europe and Manila is at least as good as any euro I have seen period. But that doesnt mean much. Obviously the euros have top turf horses and different style racing but I disagree with the idea that european horses are superior on the whole than American horses.

I never would assert that European horses are superior than American horses on the whole, and I don't believe that at all.

The only statement I stand behind is that their top class grass runners are superior to our top class turfers.

That is all.

Cannon Shell 06-15-2008 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ
I never would assert that European horses are superior than American horses on the whole, and I don't believe that at all.

The only statement I stand behind is that their top class grass runners are superior to our top class turfers.

That is all.

But the reason that an American horse (like Curlin) will have a hard time winning the ARC isn't because they arent good enough, but because the style of racing and the course not to mention the ground are totally different than anything they have ever encountered, which was the original arguement.

ateamstupid 06-15-2008 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockey2315
What does the 115 Beyer have to do with it? Beyers are lower on turf (and less relevant) and they don't make beyers for euro races so I have no idea what those horses are running. I also doubt Curlin will be as good on dirt, but I'm not going to rule out the possibility of it happening because it would add some more excitement to a very dull year.

When European horses come run in the BC Turf (mind you we don't always get their best), they often run 110+ Beyers. If you don't think they're running at least the equivalent of that in the Arc.. I don't know what to say.

ateamstupid 06-15-2008 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ
I never would assert that European horses are superior than American horses on the whole, and I don't believe that at all.

The only statement I stand behind is that their top class grass runners are superior to our top class turfers.

That is all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI

Scurlogue Champ 06-15-2008 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
But the reason that an American horse (like Curlin) will have a hard time winning the ARC isn't because they arent good enough, but because the style of racing and the course not to mention the ground are totally different than anything they have ever encountered, which was the original arguement.

That is a point I will consider, especially if Curlin romps in some grass race here and then gets stroked over there due to layout and ground condition.

I appreciate the banter.

Cannon Shell 06-15-2008 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ
That is a point I will consider, especially if Curlin romps in some grass race here and then gets stroked over there due to layout and ground condition.

I appreciate the banter.

Remember one thing about big hype european horses, they often run in small fields, aided by rabbits and will often only race when the "ground is suitable". That doesnt mean they all do it but cupcake city is often in effect. The funny thing is that we used to look down on the Euros because they would hype a horse off of one big win like it was the second coming of Mill Reef and now we do the same thing over here (see Big Brown)

hockey2315 06-16-2008 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid
When European horses come run in the BC Turf (mind you we don't always get their best), they often run 110+ Beyers. If you don't think they're running at least the equivalent of that in the Arc.. I don't know what to say.

Didn't you bring up the beyer thing as a reference to Curlin essentially saying that he probably can't run 115 beyers on turf but he can on dirt? I don't even know why you brought it up. . . I don't disagree with you that the horses in the Arc probably run that kind of fig (although, this is a dangerous and worthless assumption - imagine if beyers existed in Europe and not here and people were just assuming that all the top horses here were running 115s) but it just seems like a really strange way to look at things when beyers don't exist for European racing and beyers on turf aren't really the most accurate way to assess a performance. Curlin can beat any dirt horse in the world, so if he was just as good on the turf (which probably isn't the case) why couldn't he compete against top turf horses?

hockey2315 06-16-2008 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcs11204
hockey... use the drf plus... and go look at the horses i named.... hard spun maybe ?
omg

Hard Spun was a pretty good horse - but he didn't accomplish as much as Big Brown. I don't think he was much faster, either. He was PROBABLY better but I don't know and it doesn't really matter either way. Grasshopper sucks and I'm not even going to entertain the notion that he is/was better than Big Brown. The funny thing is that I don't even like Big Brown - but his best races (KY and FL Derbies) were decent races compared to last year's crop.

Indian Charlie 06-16-2008 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcs11204
and i did say whats on my mind
YOUR NOT VERY FUNNY
TO ME, YOUR NOT FUNNY AT ALL


I think he's pretty funny.

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