When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand
 

Trying to figure out why Corey overcharged this case IMO. Think they're looking for Z to cop a plea to manslaughter, then it's a win/win for Corey and Gov. Scott. Lose/lose of course for Trayvon and Z, but not as much for Z. He'll be out in five years, and he'll probably be given a program on Fox plus he'll get tons of money for his book.


Ocala Mike

Potential "hate crime" defense:

I was drunk.

"Baltimore's police chief today said that the videotaped beating of a white tourist does not appear to be a hate crime, but rather "drunken opportunistic criminality.""

That's a relief.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/...beating-879234

Watch Zimmerman ask for a speedy trial (which he should) and he'll get acquitted. Then riots.

yay.

It is the perfect storm and exactly what is likely to happen.
Disney first!

:zz: Thought same thing..why the heavier charge...Must have some strong 'facts' we don't know about...I think your ole pal Doc Savage should ghost write Z's book...:)

When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand
 

Can't listen to Savage anymore; all he's doing lately is shamelessly plugging his new book and bashing both Obama and Romney. I think he's on suicide watch since Rachel Maddow's book is outselling his.

the main concern isn't the charge now, but whether they instruct the jury to consider lesser charges later. might as well go for the tougher and see how it plays out.
hell, they might end up with a plea before it's all said and done anyway. if i was zimmerman, i'd be seeing what deal i could get.

Wow, the ultimate insult...:p

Good point, see how things shake out...quilty as charged, or of a lesser offense, self defense, nolo contendere etc...one thing is certain, a young man (kid) is dead and justice must be served, whatever that might be..

We just saw what can happen when a prosecutor overcharges (Anthony case)..hopefully they have evidence to back up charge and aren't again pandering to the public.

which is why i said they should have instructed the jury that they could bring in a lesser. big mistake on their part, hope they learned their lesson.

i just think at this point a plea bargain would be best. end the circus, get him for manslaughter. do a few years (or a month? or is that only for nfl players).

He's not going to plea bargain. That would be silly. A half decent attorney will rip them to shreds.

Baez.

The Affidavit filed for Second Degree Murder charges:

http://apne.ws/Itn7Nu

This prosecutor is well-respected and is considered very tough. I'm sure she brought second-degree murder charges because that's what the evidence proves.

If you think, "she brought second-degree murder charges because that's what the evidence proves", then I assume you are predicting that Zimmerman will be convicted of 2nd degree murder. I predict that he will not be convicted of 2nd degree murder. We will see who is right.

Don't think she was predicting that outcome but i'm with you that he will not be convicted of 2nd degree murder....looks like 4-1 odds on our side...good bet...Is Vegas taking action on this?....

You would ass-ume wrongly. The prosecutors reputation is exemplary, and is that of getting convictions, of being very tough and accurate. She didn't need a grand jury. I'm sure she's filed those charges, and not 1st degree murder charges, and not manslaughter charges, because she has evidence that readily meets the definition of 2nd degree murder.

If that's what he'll be convicted of, if he's convicted at all, I don't know what the jury will do.

Here's some interesting stuff about Florida murder laws (first and manslaughter there, too, on different pages)

http://www.richardhornsby.com/crimes...tml#Definition

Second Degree Murder in Florida

If accused of Second Degree Murder in Florida, you need to know the:

Definition of Second Degree Murder
Penalties for Second Degree Murder
Defenses to Second Degree Murder

Definition of Second Degree Murder

The crime of Second Degree Murder occurs when a person commits either:

Murder with a Depraved Mind or
Accomplice Felony Murder

Murder with a Depraved Mind

Murder with a Depraved Mind occurs when a person is killed, without any premeditated design, by an act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life.

The primary distinction between Premeditated First Degree Murder and Second Degree Murder with a Depraved Mind is that First Degree Murder requires a specific and premeditated intent to kill.

Accomplice Felony Murder

Accomplice Felony Second Degree Murder occurs when you are an accomplice to a person who kills another human being while engaged in the commission, or attempted commission, of the following statutorily enumerated felonies, regardless of whether they intended the death:

Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
Aggravated child abuse,
Aggravated stalking,
Aircraft piracy,
Arson,
Burglary
Carjacking,
Distribution of Controlled Substances
Escape,
Home-invasion robbery,
Kidnapping,
Murder of another human being,
Resisting Officer with Violence,
Robbery,
Sexual battery,
Terrorism,
Trafficking in Controlled Substances, or
Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb.

Penalties for Second Degree Murder

The crime of Second Degree Murder is classified as a First Degree Felony and is assigned a Level 10 offense severity ranking under Florida's Criminal Punishment Code.

If convicted of Second Degree Murder, a judge is required to impose a minimum prison sentence of 16¾ years in prison and can impose any additional combination of the following penalties:

Up to Life in prison.
Up to Life on probation.
Up to $10,000 in fines.

10/20/Life

Under Florida's 10-20-Life law, a person who uses a Firearm to commit Second Degree Murder must be sentenced to a minimum-mandatory prison sentence of 25 years. [1]

Defenses to Second Degree Murder

In addition to the pretrial defenses and trial defenses that can be raised in any criminal case, specific defenses to the crime of Second Degree Murder are:

Excusable Homicide

The killing of a human being is excusable, and therefore lawful, under any one of the following three circumstances:

When the killing is committed by accident and misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means with usual ordinary caution and without any unlawful intent, or
When the killing occurs by accident and misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or
When the killing is committed by accident and misfortune resulting from a sudden combat, if a dangerous weapon is not used and the killing is not done in a cruel or unusual manner.

Justifiable Homicide

The killing of a human being is justifiable homicide and lawful if done while resisting an attempt by someone to kill you or to commit a felony against you.
Self Defense

Also known as the justified use of deadly force, self defense is a defense to the crime of Second Degree Murder. Please view the Florida Self Defense section for more information.

I doubt anyone is taking bets but I totally agree with you. I think most legal experts would agree that it would be a longshot for Zimmerman to be convicted of 2nd degree murder based on the evidence we have seen so far.

Here is an interesting article that talks about what to expect going forward with the case. This article touches on many different issues that some of you may be curious about including how some of Florida's laws differ from other states.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...rvers-say?lite

It will be interesting to see if Zimmerman is granted bail. For this type of case, I think the defendant normally would be granted bail. However, I wouldn't make a prediction in this case simply because there will be a huge amount of public pressure on the judge to deny bail.

No, they did not ask for bail today. He's in prison now. I heard he was being kept apart from other prisoners in his own cell for protection.

There appears to be only three defenses against 2nd degree murder, and self-defense is the only one Zimmerman appears to have. And considering Zimmerman followed and stalked Trayvon while carrying a loaded gun, self-defense doesn't look good.

You said that you believe the prosecutor brought those charges "because that is what the evidence proves". If that is what the evidence proves, then why wouldn't you think he will be convicted of those charges?

I know that. But he is going to ask for bail well before his next hearing (May 29).

Because juries don't leave their emotions out of it.

Ah. Got it. I don't know how they would keep him safe. He certainly can't go out in public.

He's in for a hell of a life, no matter what happens to him.

Did you read the wording in the affidavit of murder charge? Zimmerman "profiled" Trayvon is what was said.

"Zimmerman "profiled" Trayvon is what was said."

They can say whatever they want. Saying it doesn't prove it. They need to prove it.

While we're on this subject, I'm going to give you a hypothetical. Let's pretend you spotted me walking in your neighborhood and you didn't recognize me. You thought my body-language looked somewhat suspicious. In addition, let's say that I was black and this made you slightly more suspicious because there had been a recent string of burglaries in your neighborhood committed by black people.

So you call the police and then you follow me. You finally confront me and grab me by the arm. I punch you in the face and knock you to the ground. Then I get on top of you and continue punching you in the face and start banging your head on the cement. Then you pull out a gun and shoot me. Even in that scenario, I don't think 2nd degree murder would be a slam dunk. Even though you followed me and grabbed me by the arm, I still don't think it would be a slam dunk because when you finally shot me it was to save yourself from death or grave bodily harm. You probably couldn't claim self-defense since you grabbed me first.

Granted you would be at fault for starting the whole altercation. But if you had no plans to harm me and only wanted to hold me until the police got there, I think 2nd degree murder would be hard to prove. I think manslaughter would be more likely.

My hypothetical is a much stronger case for the prosecutor than the Zimmerman case because in the Zimmerman case I don't think there is any evidence that Zimmerman started the physical altercation.

None of us on-lookers know what evidence the prosecuter has...Filing for 2nd degree hints at something they have in their bag....and maybe it is a ploy to get him to plead out for a lesser charge....??

In some of these cases, they give the jury a choice. Some of the lawyers on television were saying that in cases like this, the prosecutor will often over-charge, then give the jury a choice, and then hope that the jury compromises and finds the person guilty of a lesser charge such as manslaughter.

In some cases, they don't give the jury a choice. It's murder or nothing. I'm sure they will give the jury a choice in this case.

I doubt it. There would be too much of a public outcry if he was allowed to plead guilty. The state is going to roll the dice and hope the jury comes back with a responsive verdict of manslaughter at worst.

This case aside, the prosecutor ALWAYS over-charges!:eek:

When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand
 

I'm starting to think that there must be something in the evidence not yet made public that weighs heavily on the side of this prosecutor. Would make sense, too, and would kind of justify the original conclusion 45 days ago not to arrest Z because the evidence wasn't available then.

This late-emerging evidence, I believe, has to do with either:

1. The gunshot wound that took Trayvon out. Could it possibly have been fired from other than close range? Obviously, that crushes Z's case.

2. The voice analysis on the 911 tapes. Was that Z or Trayvon yelling?

I'm sure you guys are all familiar with the famous Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz. Here is his opinion on the charges filed in the Trayvon Martin case:

“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder."

He goes on to call the arrest affidavit "Irresponsible and unethical". Here is the interview:

http://realclearpolitics.com/video/2...unethical.html

Typical that a few libs on the board are praising the prosecutor.

You're f.ucking dumb. Real, real dumb. I feel sorry for Pupkin having to reply to your drivel.

It's akin to trying to teach a chimp how to drive.

3. There was a 2nd shooter in the grassy knoll.

Conclusions like this are why cases should not be tried in the media and ultimately such asinine assumptions taint potential jury pools. It is idiotic to assume that because a prosecutor has charged something that they have the evidence to prove a case, particulary in high profile cases such as this.

There are careers to be made here and I am sure that the special prosecutor is chomping at the bit for her 15 minutes in the limelight.

This is an incredibly uninformed statement and clearly said by someone who actually spends little or no time in criminal courtrooms. The jury system is the best protection American citizens have. Without it we would be a police state.

You have the stones to criticize others for stepping into what you claim is your expertise, but have no issue stating your uniformed opinions within the expertise of others. The more I read your nonsense (and I try to avoid it as much as possible, but since every other post in this section is yours, it is impossible to avoid), the more it becomes clear to me that hypocrites like you and those that think with your warped logic, like your god Obama, are truly the problem with this country today. People like you are trying to make us a third world country.

Sadly, this is mostly true in reality. A prosecutor's job is supposed to be to seek justice. The reality is that they take a win at all costs attidute often regardless of the true facts of the case and whether justice is really being served. Some of the burying of exculpatory evidence that I have seen by prosecutors over my almost 20 years of criminal practice is astonishing. But when Judges don't impose strict penalties when it occurs, and more often than not no penalty, and prosecutors have absolute immunity from being sued and being held accountable, it will continue to occur.

Do prosecutors sometimes overcharge trying to flush out a plea bargain with some schmo facing a boatload of time? If said schmo didn't bite are they allowed to reduce charges prior to trying in court?

i agree with you, point, and with tim-they always go for the maximum they feel they can get. it's what cost the state a successful prosecution of casey anthony, as it was the only charge they sought. had they allowed finding of a lesser charge, i believe she'd have gotten a guilty-perhaps for involuntary manslaughter.
i'm afraid this case has gotten so muddied in the press that a successful prosecution is next to impossible. finding an untainted jury pool will be difficult at best. it's why i mentioned a plea deal-the state ought to seek one, and zimmerman and his attorney might agree that they would all be better served if they can do that. however, at this point zimmerman might feel he can be completely cleared. his lawyer had mentioned a possibility of a plea deal, but said he still had plenty of things to look over before he'd think any further about it.
i'm figuring the family did the right thing in pushing this, as i don't feel the case is a cut and dried deal based on the stand your ground law. however, the same thing that brought about a charge could negate any trial, because the same press who shed light on the case has gone completely overboard with it now.
i read zimmerman is receiving death threats-i always find that appalling. people are outraged over a murder, so they want to commit one. how in the hell does that make sense?

probably. and they can instruct juries to consider lesser crimes. hell, the state and the defense attorney can come up with a plea at any time during the proceedings.

I have seen that happen many times. In New York there is very little discovery prior to trial, and evidence is really shrouded in secrecy. I know that Florida permits more discovery than New York, such as pre-trial depositions which a defendant does not have a right to in New York. There is no more valuable discovery than depositions which give each party equal access to all evidence and actually often avoids trials since everyone knows where they stand and it becomes easier to formulate a just agreement.

A scheme that is often used in New York is to take a policy that any plea bargain that involves a reduction in the charges must be done prior to the prosecutor presenting the case to a Grand Jury. Since a defendant has absolutely no right to discovery in New York prior to being indicted by a Grand Jury, prosecutors often intimate that their case is much stronger than it really is without actually allowing me to see the evidence they have.

They are permitted to reduce (or increase) the level of charges in New York any time prior to trial. And yes, I often get threats that if my client does not take the plea bargain today, they will go for the maximum on charges with suggestions of evidence to back it up only to see them reduce the charges often below the level of the plea bargain offer if my client rejects it.

justice:rolleyes:

I would not want to represent Zimmerman regardless of whether he is guilty of not. I think it would be very difficult for him to get a fair trial with the bloodthirst the media has had for this case. Couple that with the pressure that people like Sharpton and Jackson place on potential jurors and the notion that juries let people walk because of the perception that a few high profile defendants got away with crimes because of dumb juries (most of those whom criticize did not sit in the courtroom and see all the evidence), it seems to me that finding a fair jury pool will be very difficult.