http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8152579.stm

Of course, what they are doing is completely futile and silly, as long as China doesn't join their efforts.

Edit: and I wanted to include this, too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/629/629/7056601.stm

"State of the Planet, in graphics: Globally human populations are growing, trade is increasing, and living standards are rising for many. But, according to the UN's latest Global Environment Outlook report, long-term problems including climate change, pollution, access to clean water, and the threat of mass extinctions are being met with "a remarkable lack of urgency".

Exactly. Like Sarah Palin writing an op-ed the other day in the Washington Post, where she tries to talk about cap and trade (she used to be 'for' it, now she's 'against' it, apparently) and energy, yet she completely fails to even mention why those subjects need to be talked about - climate change.

I wonder what Palin thinks the reason is, why towns in her state of Alaska have had to permanently move because the permafrost is gone?

Wonder if Palin wonders why the permafrost is gone?

Naw. Probably not.

The problem is we are in a situation where the majority of the oil and natural gas in the world has been consumed by Americans for a long time. China and India are now catching up to where we were 20 years ago and if they follow the same road that we did they will dwarf our level of consumption which in turn will drive up prices, deplete resources, (and if you want to believe, continue global warming). If we were to access all the oil at our disposal and stop importing it would last us less than 5 years. We need to hold onto those strategic resources while we develop alternative energy. As the leaders of the world we can't wait for other people to come up with these solutions. And if we are going to put pressure on China and India to join us in this effort then we sure as hell had better already be setting an example as well as providing potential solutions.

I'm not naive enough to believe that I understand all the intricacies of Cap and Trade to fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of it. What I do believe is that everything I said in the first paragraph is true. If it means the taxpayers are investing in the future then I am willing as a patriotic American to make that investment. If others aren't willing then I can understand their position. I just wish more people could base their decision on what they believe and not on whether John McCain or Barack Obama is pushing the idea.

good post. bad example.

this is from mccain's wikipedia bio:

"In October 2003, McCain and Lieberman co-sponsored the Climate Stewardship Act that would have introduced a cap and trade system aimed at returning greenhouse gas emissions to 2000 levels; the bill was defeated with 55 votes to 43 in the Senate.[165] They reintroduced modified versions of the Act two additional times, most recently in January 2007 with the co-sponsorship of Barack Obama, among others.[166]"

john mccain thinks. not everything he does is knee jerk partisan.

you need to pick a dumber republican. i'd give an example but at this point just spin the wheel again and you'll probably hit a winner.

Well I was kinda thinking McCain cause had he won the election he might have pushed for the same sort of thing and various people would be on the exact opposite side of the argument.

It would be hilarious to have an alternate universe where McCain won and then post Arlington Jim's posts from that universe over here.

This is the alternate universe. I wanna go home.

There may be some truth to this however on this topic liberals like Riot (yes you are a liberal) seem to think that they can't possibly be wrong. And if anyone disagrees with them they are either a brainwashed conservative that does not "believe" in science or is simply getting all of their info from biased scientists that are on the Fox network payroll.

Please post links to your sources of information. You are very naive if you think cap and trade has anything to do with the "threat" of climate change.

Never said I disagree the climate is changing. I think that's been happening for as long as the Earth's been around. I disagree with the man made part.

you completely missed my point as usual.

What do you need links for? That more people in China and India are buying their own automobiles? That we have a better chance of getting China and India to reduce emissions if we can provide the solution? Do you also need proof that the sun still exists even when it goes behind a cloud? If you are looking for a source that our oil reserves would be gone in 5 years if we stopped importing you can find that data easily enough in Chapter 5 of Bush's National Energy Policy by adding their estimates together and then relating it to our annual consumption.

The U.S. is sitting on the world's largest, untapped oil reserves -- reservoirs which energy experts know exist, but which have not yet been tapped and may not be attainable with current technology. In fact, such untapped reserves are estimated at about 2.3 trillion barrels, nearly three times more than the reserves held by Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) nations and sufficient to meet 300 years of demand -- at today's levels -- for auto, truck, aircraft, heating and industrial fuel, without importing a single barrel of oil.

per Kiplinger 6/30/08

Estimates of what we can actually get to place the number more around 39 billion barrels. So basically if a world war broke and we were suddenly cut off from being able to import oil we would exhaust our oil supplies in five years. Perhaps in five years we could find ways to access some of the currently unattainable oil but that isn't something I want to count on. Let's hold off on "drill baby drill" until we are sure we can access even a quarter of the oil that we believe to be out there. And if in the meantime we can develop more renewable sources as well then we'll be able to stretch it for even longer and have alternatives when it finally does all run out.

How about letting American Oil companies drill at their own expense w/either a leasing or profit share agreement on U.S. 'protected lands' with all money collected going to development of renewable resources? And end all this nonsense of Cap and Trade?

That doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

You made some statements that I would love to see data on. You basically called me a liar and demanded that I post links in another thread (which I did) yet you see no need to provide links for your outlandish statements? I dont think China and India give a damn about what we do or dont do on emissions.

No, I just ignored it ;)

LOL - not according to what I believe politically. You're just incensed I (or anyone) likes Obama, and you think "liberal" is a dirty word :D

the first day you thought Jimmy Carter had a deep understanding of 'anything' was the day you popped your liberal cherry.

Playboy?

"Don't touch me. I'm a nuclear engineer, and I'm pretty worried right now."

SNL Pepsi Syndrome

Coming from the guy for which it took multiple posts, in several threads, until he understood what my original post actually said and didn't say - I'm proud of you :tro:

You may personally "like" Obama but based upon his agenda thus far it would be a stretch to say that there is much of anything that a card carrying member of the GOP that you proclaim to be would be in favor of.

obama right now is 1 and done

ain't no way cap and trade is passing

health care will die on the house floor

here come Jeb , here comes Jeb

the problem for the g.o.p. is that the requirements for carrying that card keep getting increasingly narrow.

i don't think democrats need much of a strategy beyond waiting for the g.o.p. to define themselves as a regional party consisting of old white southern males.

unless they manage to unhitch themselves from a radical agenda dictated by rush, sean, and the rest of the fair and balanced crowd the future of the g.o.p is defined by demographics.

Yes, I like Obama alot. Yes, alot of what he's doing is different from what I basically believe, but the state of the world and the country are different right now, too. It's quite a mess.

I have no desire to stand upon partisan ideology just for ideology's sake, and I absolutely support the basics of what is being done.

There's plenty of others, Senators and Congressmen, making complete fools of themselves in the name of partisan politics right now, placing partisan politics ahead of the welfare of the country. I won't vote for them again. Plenty of non-extreme, non-stupid GOP out there.

Yup. I'm GOP through and through. We just have to get the party back from the right-wing extremist nut jobs that have become so vocal these past 5-8 years.

Kind of like the feeling of free-falling with no parachute?

Hint the GOP's substance is ideology and conservative beliefs and for you to like and absolutely support what Obama is doing while those things he is doing differ from what you believe in, makes the point we need a third, fourth and maybe fifth party. Maybe the Gov. could finance that project? When pigs fly!!!!

please keep reminding people like riot they don't really belong.

you don't need them muddying things up.

i'm sure the demo's will take all the blue dogs, hispanics, conservative gays, and other libertarians that don't pass muster with your increasingly radicalized party.

Those in the GOP that act like that are not the majority, they are the minority. They only got that voice in the past 6-8 years, too. The question is - will the majority of the party abandon, or re-take the party? No good leadership right now.

Edit: many of the most crazy are literally old, and dying off. However, Audra wasn't a vote of confidence in the future. But everyone that voted against her, was.

Only if one subscribes to extremely narrow and rigid viewpoints. That's far from the majority of Americans.

You should read the GOP platform points in detail. You may get a better idea of it's "substance".

Carter + Obama = Don't let the GOP door hit you in the a$$.

Doing his part to go against the most base tenents of the GOP identity, and trying to represent the GOP as the party of hate and intolerance.

and please keep thinking that all your super timely carter posts are really hitting the mark in 2009.

what? no lyndon johnson?

and Carter and Obama are the poster children of the new GOP? Anything have to do with Israel, Inflation or Incompetence? The three I's!!! The new GOP.

I didn't bring him up RIOT did

Obama has a strong interest in, and understanding of, the myriad of complexities involving the various countries in the middle east. Tribal relations, power struggles, economics, historic, religious, etc. Carter had (and has) the same. Both "get it" - that it's an incredibly complicated, multi-layered area of the world.

Riot 2009

Yeah, once, briefly, in passing :D And never within the contexts you have yammered on, and on, and on, and on about.

i get it now.

you're in love with riot.

sometimes i miss elementary school, too. sheri mann was my obsession. the little minx. it didn't matter how much i shoved her out of line or told her she had cootites, she still rejected me.

i hope you have better luck.

you figured me out

Huh? :zz:


I've been GOP since the 70's. The GOP that's in the eye of public perception today is what we used to keep in the closet, and let out only during conventions.