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-   -   Mandatory Healthcare? (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33329)

Riot 12-22-2009 08:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig
accusing the govt of being less than efficient isn't unpatriotic. altho ours isn't the best, it's still better than anything else.
Yes, but saying it's a 100% failure is beyond ridiculous, and our country fairly deserves far better than that assessment.

There are plenty of successionists around, and maybe they should.

Danzig 12-22-2009 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
I think you have a simple disagreement in goals going on here. If these people fighting you don't seem interested in the improvements you're mentioning, it's because they don't value these things. They value exclusivity. They aren't interested in changes that make for a more decent (civil) society at all. They don't value that, and there is nothing that can be done to make them better people. They are selfish, and forcing companies to treat people in a decent way isn't going to interest them very much. Do they seem interested? They are what they are. You can't change selfish minds with arguments that have a payoff that involves protecting all citizens from a poor outcome. They aren't highly interested in that. Notice how these consumer protections haven't thrilled them? They lack the values that are necessary for one to be able to cherish such important consumer protections.


lol
i have what i have because i worked for it. forgive me for believing that other people who want what i have can have it too. they can work for it just like i did and continue to do. i don't feel guilty because i think everyone who looks at what i've earned and wants it should work for it just like i did. no one has given me a thing. i've worked for it, it's mine. so, yeah, you're right. i don't want to give others my stuff. i want them to get it for themselves just like i did. how is that wrong? i didn't get a leg up, no free rides from anyone. why do others feel they should get what i've earned, without earning it?! my husband and i pay 187 every two weeks for health insurance. it was never a discussion of whether we could afford it, it was and is a necessity for us and our children. problem is, others such as some people who work for me, choose not to take out the health insurance available. but now i'm supposed to watch my costs and taxes skyrocket because a guy would rather buy chewing tobacco then pay for health insurance? he can't afford the one, but he can afford the other? and i'm supposed to feel bad if he gets the flu and doesn't go to the doctor, and whines that he hasn't got insurance? he chose not to get it. the employees portion where i work for his coverage is 10 bucks a week, but he chose not to get it! gimme a break. yeah, he's cheated out his rightful share. :rolleyes:

Danzig 12-22-2009 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
Yes, but saying it's a 100% failure is beyond ridiculous, and our country fairly deserves far better than that assessment.

There are plenty of successionists around, and maybe they should.

what's a successionist?

Riot 12-22-2009 09:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER
I think you have a simple disagreement in goals going on here. If these people fighting you don't seem interested in the improvements you're mentioning, it's because they don't value these things. They value exclusivity. They aren't interested in changes that make for a more decent (civil) society at all. They don't value that, and there is nothing that can be done to make them better people. They are selfish, and forcing companies to treat people in a decent way isn't going to interest them very much. Do they seem interested? They are what they are. You can't change selfish minds with arguments that have a payoff that involves protecting all citizens from a poor outcome. They aren't highly interested in that. Notice how these consumer protections haven't thrilled them? They lack the values that are necessary for one to be able to cherish such important consumer protections.
Interesting. I haven't seen too many discuss the psychological aspects of the current polarization of the country on most issues. I don't know if I would agree with all those characterizations. Some of them, yes.

Some (the general "some") are clearly mislead about what is or is not involved in health reform (thinking things are there that are clearly not). Thus they dislike something that doesn't exist. I'm not interested in changing peoples opinion to match mine. But I am interested in discussing differences of opinion, based in accuracy. Before you can assess something, you have to at least have some familiarity with it. If you actually know what is there, and don't like it, that's different than blindly fearing the unknown, or having been lied to about content ("death panels" "Muslim Kenyan" type of thing)

I wouldn't characterize most who disagree with health reform as selfish individualists. I see nothing wrong with strong individualism, and think it can co-exist with strong societal mores and sense of community, co-shared existence.

I do think it's true most people don't worry about what's not directly affecting them or under their own nose. And many fear change for change's sake, fear of the unknown, "outside forces", especially when the country has been so unsteady the past few years.

Riot 12-22-2009 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig
what's a successionist?
An "ionist" who is successful? :D How about secessionist. Better?

Riot 12-22-2009 09:20 PM
Quote:
my husband and i pay 187 every two weeks for health insurance. it was never a discussion of whether we could afford it,
But what if it was $867 a month, with some medical problems and routine monthly medications you have to take not covered?

I had health insurance at a practice I worked at about 5 years ago, and it was employee matching and cheap, but when I left, the same insurance cost was nearly $1000 a month for me to purchase it and keep the same plan as an individual.

Please don't assume that everyone who does not have health insurance is chewing tobacco, managing their finances or priorities wrong. Sure, some are, but lots of hardworking people can't afford health insurance once they have a medical problem, especially if they have moved, changed jobs, have to change carriers. It all starts from scratch at that point as far as the insurance carrier goes.

Danzig 12-23-2009 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
An "ionist" who is successful? :D How about secessionist. Better?

lol that works.

Cannon Shell 12-23-2009 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
I think it's funny you think there's a connection :zz:

So please, explain how MA's being in arrears of it's states' matching Medicare payments to it's own facilities has anything at all to do with the federal government?

Or how the MA program, which differs completely from the federal healthcare reform act, is pertinent to the discussion?
And here I thought that this was what you said. Silly me.

Cannon Shell 12-23-2009 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
I love it - just ignore anything you don't like hearing, and just dismiss it out of hand. You guys are hilarious :tro: What a miserable next 7 years you are going to have.

But a good plan would be to make sure we elect Libertarians or TeaBaggers at the next election cycle, and start working on getting rid of the following Federal Government intrusions on our lives, and in our pocketbooks.

Let's keep the military (defense and veterans affairs) and interstate highways.

Medicare: This has to go immediately. We can attrition Medicare out over the next 20 years. Everyone can stop paying into it immediately (immediate tax cut). We'll just use what's left already in the system to take care of current recipients until they die. Then when the people on this board hit 65, there will be nothing there for you except what you have saved yourself.

We also can probably get rid of:

Our national park system and Department of the Interior - sell off the land (thousands of acres owned by BLM, too), reduce the deficit.

NASA - kinda just a fun thing to do, no real return to us, very expensive.

CDC - hospitals, doctors can take care of this, no need for coordinating agencies. No federal funding for health care, stem cell research, etc.

Civil rights - states can work this out at the state level.

Probably also get rid of:
Departments of Justice, Agriculture, Education, Transportion, Nuclear Regulation, State, Labor, Energy, Army Corp of Engineers, Consumer Product Safety, Federal Communications Commission, Equal Opportunity Employment, Housing and Urban Development, Treasury (this might be a really good idea).

That will save us tons of money, and eliminate most federal interference in our lives. We will be back to "on our own", as the original Patriots envisioned this country!
The numbers are still juiced and the whole economic premise is built on pie in the sky projections regardless of how you try to spin it. It is like saying that if every KC Royal hits .390 with 30 HR's next year and every pitcher throws 30 CG shoutouts, they will win the WS. Yeah sure...

And the scary thing is there is probably a better chance of KC winning the WS than Obamacare reducing the deficit

Cannon Shell 12-23-2009 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
Health reform was enormously popular when Obama was elected, and this week it rose up again another 6 points to a majority back to favoring it. People tend to fluxuate with winners, however.

The timetable on healthcare reform has taken 40 years. It's about time for a start on healthcare reform in this country. This is a tremendous advancement for our country, starting to place us up with the rest of the first world countries on health care - finally.

Every American - person - arrested in this country is entitled to a lawyer, which we - the public - pays for if the arrested can not. I think Americans being entitled to a doctor is more important.

People have pointed out how civil rights legislation, medicare - all the major social reforms have started, then been tweeked over time. This is the same.
But this is the start. We won't leave 15% of our population to flounder any more.
Well you finally said something correct. The other 85% can begin to flounder right alongside those 15%. Your problem is your determination to make this bill or others floated out (you have been behind everyone proposed despite huge differences in the proposals) to be the best possible healthcare reform when it clearly is terribly flawed. The healthcare issue was made the big priority simply because Obama, Pelosi and Reid wanted to be the three new faces on the liberal Mt Rushmore. Perhaps if you found one issue within the bill that you took issue with we wouldnt consider you simply a shill for Obama. But that is not likely.

Cannon Shell 12-23-2009 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
Yes, but saying it's a 100% failure is beyond ridiculous, and our country fairly deserves far better than that assessment.

There are plenty of successionists around, and maybe they should.
Your ability to twist is really not a strongpoint. The guy simply pointed out the economic failures of a number of huge govt programs. He is absolutely 100% correct. If you have some hidden information on those programs not being ecomnomic losers I am sure we would all love to see it.

Cannon Shell 12-23-2009 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
But what if it was $867 a month, with some medical problems and routine monthly medications you have to take not covered?

I had health insurance at a practice I worked at about 5 years ago, and it was employee matching and cheap, but when I left, the same insurance cost was nearly $1000 a month for me to purchase it and keep the same plan as an individual.

Please don't assume that everyone who does not have health insurance is chewing tobacco, managing their finances or priorities wrong. Sure, some are, but lots of hardworking people can't afford health insurance once they have a medical problem, especially if they have moved, changed jobs, have to change carriers. It all starts from scratch at that point as far as the insurance carrier goes.
Right and the best approach would have been insurance reform. Costs trillions less and can actually work. but i digress...

Riot 12-23-2009 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
And here I thought that this was what you said. Silly me.
LOL - you just keep ignoring, don't you? :D

Merry Christmas to all my angry Libertarian and Teabagging friends here on Dee Tee, you patient Progressives, too, and especially my fellow Mods to the right. We'll all get health care reform for Christmas, which will apparently be the end of civilization as we know it, but try to enjoy the holidays and your families, anyway :)

Coach Pants 12-23-2009 10:48 AM
GFY

Riot 12-23-2009 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants
GFY
Please, don't use up the only adverbs you know in one post.

Danzig 12-23-2009 11:27 AM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1261...toWhatsNewsTop

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...ctions_opinion

Coach Pants 12-23-2009 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
Please, don't use up the only adverbs you know in one post.
That's an abbreviation, you ignorant s.lut.

Here are two more

EAD
DIAF

Riot 12-23-2009 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants
That's an abbreviation, you ignorant s.lut.

Here are two more

EAD
DIAF
LOL. Big deal. You're the pathetic, chronic DT joke, who thinks he's a shocking impressive bully, but only repeatedly demonstrates that he has the mental maturity of a not-very-word-wise child.

Yeah, using naughty words and hurling insults, your repeated temper tantrums against other DeeTeer's you don't like proves you're a really a big important guy.

ROFLMAO.

Danzig 12-23-2009 02:32 PM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...ctions_opinion

Riot 12-23-2009 03:07 PM
LOL - we started beating up on these greedy porkers back on page one here, 'Zig!

That's another reason to change the filibuster rules - it will help keep this from happening.


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