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-   -   Summer Bird could be HOY (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32069)

hockey2315 10-04-2009 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
Considering his running style I don't think he's going to be a good fit at all on synthetics. He is a grinder who doesn't particularly have a burst of speed.

Of the two Triple Crown race winners that will be in the BC I'd prefer Mine That Bird but, after all, he did finish last on that surface last October.

NT
The Classic has the potential to be an amazing betting race if Sea the Stars, Zenyatta, and Summer Bird all run. They'd all take a ton of money and be huge play againsts.

RockHardTen1985 10-04-2009 07:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockey2315
The Classic has the potential to be an amazing betting race if Sea the Stars, Zenyatta, and Summer Bird all run. They'd all take a ton of money and be huge play againsts.


Are you kidding me? STS is almost unbeatable over that track.

cmorioles 10-04-2009 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
No Jackson did which was the point of the original post. That any trainer would want to train a horse that made 10 million is besides the point. I find is amusing that less than a year ago Curlin's "fans" and connections were calling him the greatest horse since.... and yet here we are less than a year later and RA has seemingly passed him on the greatest horse measures. And you have to believe that besides recency that his flop in the BC has to play a factor in that. The truth is that he had a very nice career but never did any thing truly extraordinary.
I agree with some of that. But to say he had a nice career is a bit of an understatement. He won the Preakness in his what, 5th career start? He won the Jockey Club Gold Cup and the BC Classic as a 3yo, then trounced the field in the world's richest race.

Very, very few horses show up in February in a 3 year old maiden race and do the things he did the rest of the year. While he didn't beat much at 4, he certainly did at 3.

Kasept 10-04-2009 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
He was actually with Sadler prior to going to Tim Ice and Sadler told the Jayaramans that he did not go well over synthetics at all.

NT
That's Sadler's version. There's quite a bit he's leaving out. Everyone should reserve judgement about how Summer Bird gets over Santa Anita until they see him working.

CSC 10-04-2009 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightseek
For me he is definitely the hardest horse to figure out as we get closer to the BC because he is clearly the best dirt horse at the distance, but knowing that he didn't work well previously on the surface leaves so many questions.
But Ice on attheracesandbeyond was quoted as saying he doesn't think it will bother him at all. So who do you believe...

NTamm1215 10-04-2009 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
That's Sadler's version. There's quite a bit he's leaving out. Everyone should reserve judgement about how Summer Bird gets over Santa Anita until they see him working.
What Sadler's saying could easily be wrong but based on what has been effective on the Pro-Ride for years, I don't think Summer Bird's style will play well.

NT

Theatrical 10-04-2009 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig
and had she not been purchased, she wouldn't have run in the preakness, haskell, woodward, etc. in my opinion, we were given more of a treat by jackson buying her-she certainly wasn't going to the classic with her former owners either.

perhaps everyone should enjoy what she did, rather than moaning and complaining about what has been left undone. in her case, she has accomplished far more than many. i don't feel cheated in the least with her campaign this year.
I understand what you're saying here, but Rachel's prior connections have been vilified because *gasp* they didn't wish to run against colts. That is not what Mr. Morrison said. He did not want to run her in the TC, but would entertain later races against colts. Somehow, the last part of what he said was lost, but the man did say that. I think the way Mr. Morrison has been portrayed is unfair, because he never actually ruled out running her against colts. Just not the TC.

slotdirt 10-04-2009 07:32 PM
I think Summer Bird's obviously a very nice horse, and will cherish my Summer Bird vs. Dunkirk touts of the Derby and Belmont, but I'm just not a believer of this horse when it comes to the Classic this year. He's a serious contender for 2010 though. If some random Euro doesn't win the Classic this year, I'd be shocked.

Cannon Shell 10-04-2009 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles
I agree with some of that. But to say he had a nice career is a bit of an understatement. He won the Preakness in his what, 5th career start? He won the Jockey Club Gold Cup and the BC Classic as a 3yo, then trounced the field in the world's richest race.

Very, very few horses show up in February in a 3 year old maiden race and do the things he did the rest of the year. While he didn't beat much at 4, he certainly did at 3.
True but in 1980 that would mean a lot more than now. Winning older horse races in the fall as a 3 yo really isnt much of an accomplishment when the 3 yos are better horses. No one is saying that his career was anything but successful, hell he only finished off the board 1 time but compared to truly accomplished horses he doesnt really stack up that well. Plus the way he tailed off and struggled with clearly inferior horses at the tail end of a 16 race career is telling.

Cannon Shell 10-04-2009 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
That's Sadler's version. There's quite a bit he's leaving out. Everyone should reserve judgement about how Summer Bird gets over Santa Anita until they see him working.
I dont know how anyone can tell if a horse likes an artificial surface until they run over it in the afternoon.

CSC 10-04-2009 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
What Sadler's saying could easily be wrong but based on what has been effective on the Pro-Ride for years, I don't think Summer Bird's style will play well.
NT
I have to disagree with this, the horses that seem to do well in general on poly/synth are one's that can reserve their energy in the body of their races and then make a 3/8ths surge when the real running starts. I don't know if SB's stride will take to pro ride but I surmise he will get the former part right atleast.

slotdirt 10-04-2009 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
I have to disagree with this, the horses that seem to do well in general on poly/synth are one's that can reserve their energy in the body of their races and then make a 3/8ths surge when the real running starts. I don't know if SB's stride will take to pro ride but I surmise he will get the former part right atleast.
i.e., horses who prefer turf to dirt...

CSC 10-04-2009 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slotdirt
i.e., horses who prefer turf to dirt...
Or horses more like Midnight Lute and less like Fabulous Strike.

freddymo 10-04-2009 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
I dont know how anyone can tell if a horse likes an artificial surface until they run over it in the afternoon.
Doesn't that hold true for any of the surfaces?

NTamm1215 10-04-2009 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
I have to disagree with this, the horses that seem to do well in general on poly/synth are one's that can reserve their energy in the body of their races and then make a 3/8ths surge when the real running starts. I don't know if SB's stride will take to pro ride but I surmise he will get the former part right atleast.
You've seen Summer Bird unleash a powerful 3 furlong surge? I've completely missed it because his best efforts have been when he was able to stalk, make a gradual move and gallop his foes into the ground.

NT

CSC 10-04-2009 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
You've seen Summer Bird unleash a powerful 3 furlong surge? I've completely missed it because his best efforts have been when he was able to stalk, make a gradual move and gallop his foes into the ground.

NT
I understand your point and agree that is his strength, however I don't think it's wise to say he can't have a more quicker move on synth. I think it's widely understood that it is harder to quicken on dirt than it is on synth and or turf. We just have to wait and see how he works on it, he's got the right jockey for that style in Kent, he's just about the best at reserving a horse and bullrushing him into a hole when he wants to.

boswd 10-04-2009 08:15 PM
another thing I think people forget is how much weight voters put on the Breeder's Cup. How many horses have won awards based soley on their BC performance. Thor's Echo comes to mind.

parsixfarms 10-04-2009 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boswd
another thing I think people forget is how much weight voters put on the Breeder's Cup. How many horses have won awards based soley on their BC performance. Thor's Echo comes to mind.
He needed the DeFrancis Dash to earn that title.

Cannon Shell 10-04-2009 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo
Doesn't that hold true for any of the surfaces?
no

Danzig 10-05-2009 03:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boswd
another thing I think people forget is how much weight voters put on the Breeder's Cup. How many horses have won awards based soley on their BC performance. Thor's Echo comes to mind.

sure they do, when they can't name another race in that category...it's not as tho many outside hard core race fans know that a race like the king's bishop exists.


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