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-   -   Rags to Riches/Belmont try? (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12667)

ateamstupid 05-08-2007 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious
The time to do it was in the SA Derby. That was a golden opportunity. The next best time to do it will be after the TC in the Haskell or WV Derby. Something like that after the TC has watered down the ranks. Or in a race like the Ohio Derby. The Kentucky Derby would have been the shot at immortality. Not the Belmont. The Belmont is an irrelevant race nowdays. What would she prove by winning it? That she's the best 12f 3yo in the country? Who cares? I would rather prove that I'm competitive with the best 3yo's at a distance that matters. I would not run in the Belmont.

The point is to take advantage of her stamina and pedigree and catch the males at a distance they might struggle going. Most of the horses she'd face in the Belmont would likely be better suited going shorter distances.

So let me get this straight, the Belmont is an irrelevant race, but the Haskell, West Virginia Derby or Ohio Derby would prove something about her?

There are plenty of fillies who can go nine furlongs with boys.. There are very few who can go 12 with 'em.. This might be one that can do the latter.

GenuineRisk 05-09-2007 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig
it's a shame that whenever it's mentioned that a filly might face off against colts, ruffian is brought up by someone!

why not mention genuine risk, or ouija board? lady's secret? winning colors?

as tho the fact ruffian was facing a colt somehow increased the odds of a breakdown. how ridiculous--so much for using your head, emotional responses are always so much more interesting.:rolleyes:

Or that Charismatic broke his leg running against a filly, for that matter. It was bad racing luck. That's it.

And I hope Pletcher runs RtR in the Belmont!

_ed_ 05-09-2007 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk
And I hope Pletcher runs RtR in the Belmont!

Me too.

She doesn't have a lot more to prove against the fillies at this stage, I think it would be awesome to see her up against the boys in the Belmont. Wouldn't be the end of the world if she failed, and it would be unforgettable if she won.

KY_Sasquash 05-09-2007 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moodwalker
Coolmore doesn't need Street Cry getting a Triple Crown winner in his first crop.

Spoiler time.

I wouldn't be surprised if the entire American arm of Coolmore shows up.


I am repeating this information, by the way. Heard it somewhere else


Unless they already have the breeding rights to Street Sense already tied up. Then they wont want to play spoiler:p

southerndutch 05-09-2007 12:59 PM

The last filly I remember in the Belmont was Shug sending out My Flag to finish third to Editor's Note and Skip Away.

AeWingnut 05-09-2007 07:30 PM

Jazil's half sister
 
I don't know if anyone has posted this but Rags is the half sister to Belmont winner Jazil (who can be traced back to Colin)

Maybe they will run her in the Belmont
it probabl depends on whether or not Street Sense can get it done in Baltimore

Bold Reasoning 05-10-2007 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeWingnut
I don't know if anyone has posted this but Rags is the half sister to Belmont winner Jazil (who can be traced back to Colin)

Maybe they will run her in the Belmont
it probabl depends on whether or not Street Sense can get it done in Baltimore

She is from sires that won the Belmont..the great Slew and his son A.P. Indy.

Cajungator26 05-10-2007 01:54 PM

I believe that while Rags is a half to Jazil, Jazil was bred a bit better to go the Belmont distance... JMO.

Getaway 05-10-2007 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26
I believe that while Rags is a half to Jazil, Jazil was bred a bit better to go the Belmont distance... JMO.

?? AP Indy was bred for and could run all day

somerfrost 05-10-2007 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26
I believe that while Rags is a half to Jazil, Jazil was bred a bit better to go the Belmont distance... JMO.

Well, I think looking at pedigrees, Jazil would be suspect for stamina (obviously not), certainly Rags has a more stamina-laden sire side, AP Indy was about as well bred as a horse can be imo. Since I feel stamina comes mainly from dam side, I have to conclude they are equal. This has been argued back and forth forever here, I simply think the Belmont is an odd place to try the best 3yo filly in training against the boys...two winners in history, neither at 12 furlongs. If I was gonna run my filly against the boys at three...I'd probably look at the Preakness after a prep in the SA Derby or Blue Grass. Honestly, I'd prefer to wait for something at four...maybe the Donn...then consider races such as the Whitney later in the year...just my preference. Of course, now days, most quality horses are retired by then.

Cajungator26 05-10-2007 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost
Well, I think looking at pedigrees, Jazil would be suspect for stamina (obviously not), certainly Rags has a more stamina-laden sire side, AP Indy was about as well bred as a horse can be imo. Since I feel stamina comes mainly from dam side, I have to conclude they are equal. This has been argued back and forth forever here, I simply think the Belmont is an odd place to try the best 3yo filly in training against the boys...two winners in history, neither at 12 furlongs. If I was gonna run my filly against the boys at three...I'd probably look at the Preakness after a prep in the SA Derby or Blue Grass. Honestly, I'd prefer to wait for something at four...maybe the Donn...then consider races such as the Whitney later in the year...just my preference. Of course, now days, most quality horses are retired by then.

I must be a nut then... I bet Jazil in the Belmont BECAUSE of his pedigree.

somerfrost 05-10-2007 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26
I must be a nut then... I bet Jazil in the Belmont BECAUSE of his pedigree.

well, the horse has won a mdn race and the Belmont...period. A plodder with no speed who caught the right field in the Belmont imo. Dad is Seeking the Gold by Mr Prospector (RAN) out of the Buckpasser mare Con Game. Outside of Buckpasser, I see little to suggest a Belmont winner...DP=11-3-14-0-0. Again, I look more at Dam side but overall, no stamina points in DP and with only a mdn win going in...he caught the right field on the right day imo.

Cajungator26 05-10-2007 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost
well, the horse has won a mdn race and the Belmont...period. A plodder with no speed who caught the right field in the Belmont imo. Dad is Seeking the Gold by Mr Prospector (RAN) out of the Buckpasser mare Con Game. Outside of Buckpasser, I see little to suggest a Belmont winner...DP=11-3-14-0-0. Again, I look more at Dam side but overall, no stamina points in DP and with only a mdn win going in...he caught the right field on the right day imo.

The right field is the key as that field last year was horrendous... I used him, Sunriver and Oh So Awesome in an exacta box. Jazil and Sunriver had the best pedigrees for the Belmont out of that field IMO. I wanted to include Bob and John, but didn't like how he looked leading up to the race. Most horses just aren't bred for 12f anymore.

somerfrost 05-10-2007 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26
The right field is the key as that field last year was horrendous... I used him, Sunriver and Oh So Awesome in an exacta box. Jazil and Sunriver had the best pedigrees for the Belmont out of that field IMO. I wanted to include Bob and John, but didn't like how he looked leading up to the race. Most horses just aren't bred for 12f anymore.

Very true...I question whether Rags is too! Again no points in stamina cats. She looks like she could run on but has never been past 9f...sometimes 9-10 is trouble let alone to 12f. Her top, AP Indy, Seattle Slew and Secretariat certainly seems to scream stamina but neither Slew or Secretariat are S/P CDR's.

The Indomitable DrugS 05-10-2007 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26
I believe that while Rags is a half to Jazil, Jazil was bred a bit better to go the Belmont distance... JMO.

And a horrible opinion it is.....

Come on Cajun, A.P. Indy might go down in history as the best high-profile distance stallion in a long time.

Bernardini, who had never ran beyond a mile in his career, and was making his two-turn debut in the '06 Preakness...improved his form markedly in that race, and in all distance races from that point forward.

A.P. Indy has been bred to many distance challenged dams, and those matings have produced foals who've thrived routing.

The stats I have are one year old, but I have an average winning distance of 8.3 furlongs for offspring of A.P Indy. Compared to 7.3 furlongs with Seeking the Gold.

A. P. Indy is always the first stallion that comes to mind when you think of a sire that produces high quality, late developing routers. Horses like Mineshaft, Bernardini, Aptitude, Golden Missile, Master Command, etc.

As a racehorse, A.P. Indy was also a true distance horse, winning the Belmont himself. Seeking the Gold, while an EXCELLENT race horse, never won beyond 9 furlongs.

jdm 06-10-2007 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArlJim78
umm, you might want to get some better pace information, and learn to watch races a little better. The pace was normal in those CA races. Also it wasn't so much that the other horses weren't talented, they just weren't nearly as talented as RTR. Hopefully you caught todays race because I think it should leave no doubt in your mind.

You said RTR wouldn't dominate, she crushed the field.
You said Cotton Blossom would run huge, she staggered home ninth.


Blossom staggered home again on Saturday as well. I guess I'll keep trying to learn how to handicap, please send me a copy of your book.


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