Point Givens are found everyday at every track in the country, probably all over the world. He had a strong opinion about Corinthian, got a much better price because of the presence of Jazil and was correct. However incorrect and outlandish statements are not tolerated by the community here and as such he left.

Nah, he's on right now. LOL

His "this is my last post" thread reminded me of some of Curt's drunken ramblings over on the old ESPN board. Too funny...

Didn't Curt do that here too? :)

Seriously, I really didn't have a problem with the dude except that he was saying the horse was a piece of crap when he isn't. Not saying he is the BEST HORSE since Secretariat, but he is a nice useful horse who will get in the $$$ in some nice races and make his owners some money. Nothing wrong with that. I really don't think he is overhyped. I think the majority of people believe as I do. I think that is what made us angry yesterday.

O.K...Some people have made some big statements.We will see what takes place this year.Like I have said,I like both horses,and yes,Gander,trainers that talk sht about Grade 1 Winners are A Holes too(just my opinion.)

Has there ever been a "this is my last post, I'm outta here" post that actually turned out to be just that? I kinda doubt it.

And people who call names are usually not smart enough to have relevant discussions with.

By the way I think Grade 1 winners Sutra and Meadow Breeze are mediocre horses too.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion about which horses they like and don't like, but to create a thread devoted to a horse that is supposedly the most overrated horse in the history of horse racing is just ridiculous. I would be happy if he belonged to me... as long as he's bringing home a paycheck (which he did yesterday), that's what matters.

Chuck, let's be honest here... would you complain if Shadwell decided they wanted to put Jazil in your stable? Would you turn them down? LOL

For the record, I think Jazil is a mediocre horse as well, but I sure as hell wouldn't be complaining if I owned one that made me almost a million bucks. I can promise you that.

Chuck with a Grade 1 Winner? I think he almost got one with Battle Won.In the 2005 Breeders CUP SPRINT??? No...Uh ,no,not that race....Must have been the race at Del Mar.

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/edito...le.cgi?id=6485

Maybe in 2007

I appreciate your honesty Scuds. Have always resepcted you for that. You dont mince words and you are not a head shaker. That goes a long way in life.

Well,I would love to have either of these horses.They have both disappointed at low odds,but each have had their nice moments too.

Not sure I'm in the correct thread but I have 25-50K I'd like to spend on a mediocre racing prospect. I'd like to run 2nd in the GI Wood Memorial, then run 4th in the GI Kentucky Derby, and then win the GI Belmont Stakes. Any help would be appreciated in purchasing this type of mediocre animal.:rolleyes:

haha, yes you've come to the right place.

we have some sharpies here that can easily spot the type of mediocrity that you are seeking.

They are all opinions from racing fans. None are right, none are wrong. The problem here is people develop certain biases for certain horses and trainers and they sometime can get in the way of constructive arguments.

To quote a line from Scuds, "I have no dog in this battle." I like Corinthian as a racehorse but was not willing to risk a penny on him yesterday. I know a good friend that works for his connections and that performance was a pleasant surprise yesterday to the connections. They thought he would run good but never thought he'd win by 9 going away like that. I have nothing against Jazil or any horse for that matter, but I do strongly agree with Canon that Jazil is a mediocre horse. Would I like to own him (stupid question), yes. But then again I'd love to own Rogue Agent too. I have never been impressed with any of Jazil's performances. But I wont blame any who like the horse or oooh and awe every time the little guy steps on the track.

Now onto more important things, D Money is running tomorrow in the 1st at the Little A. "Here comes D Money!"...with all the enthusiasm John Imbriale can muster up that early in the day.

:D

If that kind of animal existed for the $25-50k range with regularity, we'd all be horse owners. Find me the last Triple Crown winning horse who was solid at auction as a yearling, weanling, 2YO, or otherwise, that cost less than $50k. Even Funny Cide and Afleet Alex cost more than that.

I understand the post was made tongue and cheek.

When its all said and done, I wonder who will accomplish more...

Funny Cide or Jazil?

Jazil has a lot of work to do to get on par with the 3 time grade 1 winner, but nothing is impossible, especially if Jazil can find more soft grade 1's.

Problem is not a lot of racetracks are condusive to Jazil's running style. Funny Cide made his own racing luck and is a horse who rarely gets in trouble or throws "my dog ate my homework" excuses around when he loses.

Seriously? Tagg has had more excuses for Funny Cide's poorer efforts than I can even count. That being said, if Funny Cide had his faculties, he would have been retired three years ago and we wouldn't even have this conversation.

Yeah, I basically just made those figures up. As you said, "the post was made in tongue and cheek." I'd be interested to see some stats on the prices of TC winners. I did a bit of research though and Funny Cide sold for 22k as a yearling and War Emblem sold for 20k as a yearling. I know they sold for more later but one could've had a Classic winner for pretty cheap. I'll try and find some info on others because I'm kind of curious now.

True, Tagg has had excuses of the heat, but I was referring to trouble during the race or the pace being too fast or too slow. Funny Cide never really got into situations that marred him from winning a race.

And that Preakness perfomance was pretty special and Peace Rules turned out to be quite a nice horse, much nicer than anything Jazil beat in the Belmont.

Has anybody made excuses for Jazil yesterday? I haven't heard any.

Forgot about War Emblem selling for cheap as a weanling, same with Funny Cide. Afleet Alex probably was sold as a youngster as well before the Fasig Tipton MidAtlantic sale.

STS, I didn't leave out the effect of track takeout. I said that not being willing to bet Corinthian at 2-1 suggests that one does not think Corinthian has a 33% chance to win the race. That statement is independent of takeout. If Corinthian has better than a 33% chance to win the race, then 2-1 is a good bet. (even more so when 2-1 represents everything from 2-1 to 2.49-1). I also wrote that if Corinthian has at most a 33% chance to win the race, then the other horses must have at least a 67% chance to win the race. That's also independent of takeout. The chance of all the horses has to add to 100%.

I agree with you that most races don't have a good bet. I usually won't bother to make a line unless I have good reason to think the public will seriously over- or underestimate a particular horse. Even then, I often end up with no horse to bet.

I didn't cap the Corinthian/Jazil race, so I can't really comment on the odds you came up with.

--Dunbar

Has anybody made excuses for Jazil yesterday? I haven't heard any.


Ummm, the jockey moved too soon, Corinthian was just too fast for him, Gulfstream favors speed.

Corinthian was just too fast isn't an excuse, it's a fact.

True, but I really found the jockey moving too soon very funny. Like it would have mattered when he moved.

LOL Slot... not sure why, but this comment sounded funny to me. :D

If one horse being faster than another is an excuse, then there's an excuse for every horse in every race.

Slot,
I'm just happy to see Corinthian back. That was a very serious injury, and when I first started talking about him last year, well, I know Jim Jerkens had his hopes on finally having a derby horse. Didn't happen.
My best guess is that good things are ahead.
btw...this year I'm looking at Exhale. His sire, Millenium Wind, stands at High Cliff Farm where I breed mine. Take a look...nybreds.com, link at right (blue),
Click stallions...also press room.

That performance way exceeded Jimmy's expectations yesterday, that I can tell you. This horse has a huge future if able to stay healthy. Couldnt happen for a better guy.

This has nothing to do with me.

Is Jazil a good horse compared to the average horse? Of course. But is he a good horse compared to past Classic winners? Certainly he would be in the bottom 10% in modern times. Is he a horse that has won 2 races in Feb of his 4 year old year? Yes. Would he have won the Belmont had it really meant anything and Bernardini had run? Most likely no. Could he improve and go on to be a top calibur horse? Maybe but if were to retire right now history would soon look at him as another Sarava, Commendable, or Go and Go who are all forgetable except to the connections.

Scuds has a clue?? Check back in 2015.

If Jazil was a $25k horse then the story might have a little more appeal.

Funny Cide is way ahead now

jara did move to soon ..fyi

He's not a mediocre $25k horse....and that was my point. I don't think we're really that far apart of our opinions on him now that you revised it a few posts ago. He's not likely to accomplish what Funny Cide has due to what you stated earlier. They're aren't 1 1/2 mile races for him. Therefore he'll be left to pick up the pieces in the races that are available to him and probably make quite a bit of money in the process. I just don't consider any horse mediocre that picks up checks multiple times in graded events. Is he mediocre within the handicap division? Possibly. The rest of his career will tell.

I never revised my opinion on the horse . Until proven otherwise he is a 2nd tier handicap horse that needs a distance that he will not get and has a style that makes it tough for him on the dirt.

Picking up checks is great for those on the Dee Tee stable budget but you expect a little more from Classic winners. The fact that he has lost three times in three chances in allowances races does not lead me to believe that he is on his way to the head of the class anytime soon.

Slot, I don't think WE was sold as a weaning, he was a home-bred to Reinenman, who died like two years later after selling him. The guy had all the money in the world, and went and did that.

You have the opposite in Calabrese, who hasn't sold Dreaming of Anna, because he has all the money in the world, and loves winning races

I'm not positive. I posted that he sold for 20k and Slot was replying. I found it on SI.com derby archives. It said 20k as a weanling but I'm not sure.

Ok, so maybe revised isn't a good word. Maybe clarified would be better. I agree that he is a mediocre classic winner, not that he is a mediocre horse.