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-   -   8/7 (DMR): Clement L. Hirsch S. (G1) (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37580)

Cannon Shell 08-08-2010 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin (Post 679699)
What is so silly is that many of you keep making the same silly arguments that you were making last year. You all thought that she wasn't anything special because she wasn't beating much and she wasn't winning by big margins. You all thought she had little or no chance in the BC Classic.
After she stepped up and won the BC Classic, I would have thought that that would be enough for you to realize that you were wrong and that her winning margins and her level of competition are pretty much meaningless. Her win in the BC Classic proved that there's more in the tank than she's showing. And yet here you go again making this same argument that she must not be that good because she's beating mediocre competition by small margins. I just don't get it. The BC Classic proved that that argument is wrong and yet you guys still make that same argument.

I'm not saying that she's the greatest horse ever. I'm simply saying that you can't measure her based on these races because she is clearly capable of doing more as she proved in the BC Classic.
That really isnt true. Who exactly was the big horse everyone was touting?
The truth is that the people who knock her were right last year and are still right. These arent great races. These arent good races. She is beating crap and looking very ordinary doing it. Spin it how ever you'd like but she is really just a nice horse with quirky habits, a strong closing kick and a cupcake schedule.

Unless you just WANT her to be more than she is. Then you can say she is better than Affirmed or rank her 12 all time or whatever blasphemy you want to go with.

And you want to know why people arent flocking to see RA and Z? Because most everyone outside of 7 year old girls and retards are tired of watching glorified exibition races.

The Indomitable DrugS 08-08-2010 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 680159)
Further, after watching the Whitney yesterday, how exactly could Quality Road win any race in which Rachel was entered? If anything he is the afterthought.
I've concocted a crazy theory that the braid bead that was whipping around wildly and kept hitting his eyeball over and over while he was trying to run might have been an explanation for his horrendous performance.

If that isn't the case, he's hopeless.

Dahoss 08-08-2010 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 680164)

And you want to know why people arent flocking to see RA and Z? Because most everyone outside of 7 year old girls and retards are tired of watching glorified exibition races.
:tro::tro:

RockHardTen1985 08-08-2010 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 680159)
Further, after watching the Whitney yesterday, how exactly could Quality Road win any race in which Rachel was entered? If anything he is the afterthought.
This is silly. He was flat, one time. I pray he comes back in the Woodward, then everything will be fine again.

RockHardTen1985 08-08-2010 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 680164)
That really isnt true. Who exactly was the big horse everyone was touting?
The truth is that the people who knock her were right last year and are still right. These arent great races. These arent good races. She is beating crap and looking very ordinary doing it. Spin it how ever you'd like but she is really just a nice horse with quirky habits, a strong closing kick and a cupcake schedule.

Unless you just WANT her to be more than she is. Then you can say she is better than Affirmed or rank her 12 all time or whatever blasphemy you want to go with.

And you want to know why people arent flocking to see RA and Z? Because most everyone outside of 7 year old girls and retards are tired of watching glorified exibition races.

This is kind of funny, because I was fighting with my X outside, on the phone at work yesterday and for some reasson I used the word ******, and then one of the retards actually reported me for saying ******, and I hate the word but she pisses me off so much.... This is not even the kids mom, so now I get in trouble for saying ****** because retards were spying on me. ****ing bullshit.

cmorioles 08-08-2010 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 680172)
This is silly. He was flat, one time. I pray he comes back in the Woodward, then everything will be fine again.
Silly? He has never proven he wants that far outside of the silly 9f races at GP where speed has a HUGE advantage. Good luck betting him the rest of the year.

the_fat_man 08-08-2010 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 680159)
Further, after watching the Whitney yesterday, how exactly could Quality Road win any race in which Rachel was entered? If anything he is the afterthought.
Coming to your senses, I see. Good for you. Let's expand this a bit: QR won't be a factor in the CLASSIC --- if he makes it there. Blame eats his lunch whenever he wants.

Rachel who?:rolleyes:

Cannon Shell 08-08-2010 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV (Post 679967)
Zenyatta is arguably the greatest race horse we will see in our life time, but the day is coming when she no longer wants to race and as a 6 yo mare the day is coming soon.
That would be a pretty short argument

cmorioles 08-08-2010 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_fat_man (Post 680176)
Coming to your senses, I see. Good for you. Let's expand this a bit: QR won't be a factor in the CLASSIC --- if he makes it there. Blame eats his lunch whenever he wants.

Rachel who?:rolleyes:
If you follow me, and you do, you know I've never been on the QR bandwagon. His 121 Beyer was a total fraud.

RockHardTen1985 08-08-2010 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 680175)
Silly? He has never proven he wants that far outside of the silly 9f races at GP where speed has a HUGE advantage. Good luck betting him the rest of the year.

Im not sure I would ever bet him, I mean say he comes back in the Woodward with a few bullets... I would have to assume he would be favored again, no?

cmorioles 08-08-2010 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 680180)
Im not sure I would ever bet him, I mean say he comes back in the Woodward with a few bullets... I would have to assume he would be favored again, no?
Not against Blame obviously. Under what circumstances is he ever beating him at 9f or longer?

RockHardTen1985 08-08-2010 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 680184)
Not against Blame obviously. Under what circumstances is he ever beating him at 9f or longer?

Why cant he have just had a bad day? I think he can beat Blame under the circumstances of JV just letting him roll, let the horse run... 23-46-110 clear lead, he went slow but was pressured from the outside. Maybe I just like him to much, Its hard for me to believe a plodder like Blame is this much better then QR all of the sudden, if this was so obvious why was Blame that price and QR odds on??

Rileyoriley 08-08-2010 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 680153)
How exactly is RA an afterthought?

Because she lost her first two off of a 9 month layoff for a guy who is a statistical deadbeat as a layoff trainer?

If St. Trinians simply broke cleanly in the Vanity - there's no possible way Zenyatta would still be undefeated.
RA hasn't shown she's the same horse as last year. Blame is the top male in his handicap division at this time. I would be more excited to see a match up in the classic between Zenyatta and Blame than I would be to see Zenyatta and RA in the Distaff. I also think it would be better for the sport and get more publicity if it was the former. Again, it's just my personal opinion.

the_fat_man 08-08-2010 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 680187)
Why cant he have just had a bad day? I think he can beat Blame under the circumstances of JV just letting him roll, let the horse run... 23-46-110 clear lead, he went slow but was pressured from the outside. Maybe I just like him to much, Its hard for me to believe a plodder like Blame is this much better then QR all of the sudden, if this was so obvious why was Blame that price and QR odds on??
That's a contradiction. There was NEVER a point where the chasers put any pressure on him; never a point where they cut into his lead or appeared to threaten him. 8:1 on the exacta.

robfla 08-08-2010 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileyoriley (Post 680188)
I would be more excited to see a match up in the classic between Zenyatta and Blame than I would be to see Zenyatta and RA in the Distaff. I also think it would be better for the sport and get more publicity if it was the former. Again, it's just my personal opinion.
:confused::zz:

cmorioles 08-08-2010 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 680187)
Why cant he have just had a bad day? I think he can beat Blame under the circumstances of JV just letting him roll, let the horse run... 23-46-110 clear lead, he went slow but was pressured from the outside. Maybe I just like him to much, Its hard for me to believe a plodder like Blame is this much better then QR all of the sudden, if this was so obvious why was Blame that price and QR odds on??
I have no idea how long you have followed racing so I won't give you too much crap. How often do you see horses at the G1 level "just have a bad day" then revert right back to top form? I'll give you a clue...it isn't very often. But, to be honest, I don't think it was a bad day. I think it was a horse a tad past his best distance getting beaten by a better horse despite having things his own way.

As for your clear lead projection, that rarely works out either. The answer to a speed horse getting run down is not to go faster next time, but good luck with that theory.

letswastemoney 08-08-2010 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileyoriley (Post 680188)
RA hasn't shown she's the same horse as last year. Blame is the top male in his handicap division at this time. I would be more excited to see a match up in the classic between Zenyatta and Blame than I would be to see Zenyatta and RA in the Distaff. I also think it would be better for the sport and get more publicity if it was the former. Again, it's just my personal opinion.
Casual fans who do not have much knowledge of the game, they do not care about Blame.

Rachel on the other hand draws the attention of thousands of younger fans...even if they aren't on the track, I believe they are following her, much more than Blame at least.

RockHardTen1985 08-08-2010 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 680195)
I have no idea how long you have followed racing so I won't give you too much crap. How often do you see horses at the G1 level "just have a bad day" then revert right back to top form? I'll give you a clue...it isn't very often. But, to be honest, I don't think it was a bad day. I think it was a horse a tad past his best distance getting beaten by a better horse despite having things his own way.

As for your clear lead projection, that rarely works out either. The answer to a speed horse getting run down is not to go faster next time, but good luck with that theory.

Im a firm believer of letting your horse run, dont look around, dont play games, dont try to rate. Like I said, maybe Im making excuses for the horse I dream of.

Rileyoriley 08-08-2010 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robfla (Post 680193)
:confused::zz:
You don't think more casual fans and even non-racing folks would tune in to watch an undefeated female against an undefeated male if the race was promoted well beforehand? Sure RA v. Zenyatta would draw racing fans but I thought the sport wanted to draw new fans.

Cannon Shell 08-08-2010 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by letswastemoney (Post 680197)
Casual fans who do not have much knowledge of the game, they do not care about Blame.

Rachel on the other hand draws the attention of thousands of younger fans...even if they aren't on the track, I believe they are following her, much more than Blame at least.
Enlighten me again why we should be so concerned about casual fans and younger fans?

Unless you aren't a fan of the game you know about Blame. This idea that the "casual" fan is ever going to become a betting fan has been proven to be a myth time and time again. The cold hard truth is that there isn't going to be a game for these younger generation fans to grow to love (or bet on which is the only tangible way to support the sport as a fan) unless the real fans aren't focused on.

10 pnt move up 08-08-2010 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 680164)

And you want to know why people arent flocking to see RA and Z? Because most everyone outside of 7 year old girls and retards are tired of watching glorified exibition races.
They had 35 thousand yesterday?

Its a great sport we have though.

Rileyoriley 08-08-2010 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by letswastemoney (Post 680197)
Casual fans who do not have much knowledge of the game, they do not care about Blame.

Rachel on the other hand draws the attention of thousands of younger fans...even if they aren't on the track, I believe they are following her, much more than Blame at least.
I disagree. My friend was up for the weekend. She follows Trotters more than TBs but she does watch the TC races and the Breeders Cup. She knew who Zenyatta was and she did ask "whatever happened to that filly that won the Preakness last year?". Casual fans don't have TVG or HRTV. They don't have to know Blame's name. The girl v. boy angle would attract more attention I believe.

tiggerv 08-08-2010 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 680179)
If you follow me, and you do, you know I've never been on the QR bandwagon. His 121 Beyer was a total fraud.
Did you create a figure for yesterday's race yet? Early word was a 111 Beyer for Blame which seems way too high to me.

The Indomitable DrugS 08-08-2010 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileyoriley (Post 680188)
RA hasn't shown she's the same horse as last year. Blame is the top male in his handicap division at this time. I would be more excited to see a match up in the classic between Zenyatta and Blame than I would be to see Zenyatta and RA in the Distaff. I also think it would be better for the sport and get more publicity if it was the former. Again, it's just my personal opinion.
RA and Blame ran on the same day and distance on Foster day.

Anyone who thinks Blame would toy with her is fooling themselves.

Rileyoriley 08-08-2010 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 680213)
RA and Blame ran on the same day and distance on Foster day.

Anyone who thinks Blame would toy with her is fooling themselves.
But the classic is 1 1/4 and I will let all of them settle it on the track instead of trying to guess who will win.:)

RockHardTen1985 08-08-2010 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileyoriley (Post 680216)
But the classic is 1 1/4 and I will let all of them settle it on the track instead of trying to guess who will win.:)

I think its pretty clear who is going to win the Classic now......

The Indomitable DrugS 08-08-2010 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileyoriley (Post 680199)
You don't think more casual fans and even non-racing folks would tune in to watch an undefeated female against an undefeated male if the race was promoted well beforehand? Sure RA v. Zenyatta would draw racing fans but I thought the sport wanted to draw new fans.
A lot of these supposed new fans won't be impressed when a Volponi type horse jumps up and easily beats both of these overrated horses.

Something as simple as Ramon Dominguez's riding tactics on Haynesfield is all that prevented Musket Man from winning the Whitney yesterday. Which he certainly would have if Haynesfield did all the doggy work - instead of him being forced to come outside of Haynesfield and try to do it.

Rileyoriley 08-08-2010 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 680220)
A lot of these supposed new fans won't be impressed when a Volponi type horse jumps up and easily beats both of these overrated horses.

Something as simple as Ramon Dominguez's riding tactics on Haynesfield is all that prevented Musket Man from winning the Whitney yesterday. Which he certainly would have if Haynesfield did all the doggy work - instead of him being forced to come outside of Haynesfield and try to do it.
The classic hasn't been run yet and Blame won the Whitney. Can't change what happened nor predict what will. I won't try.

Rileyoriley 08-08-2010 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 680219)
I think its pretty clear who is going to win the Classic now......
I think I'll wait and see who enters first.:)

cmorioles 08-08-2010 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiggerv (Post 680212)
Did you create a figure for yesterday's race yet? Early word was a 111 Beyer for Blame which seems way too high to me.
I do Saturday races on Monday, but it seems a little high to me. In any case, it will be a projection by any figure maker as the only route...thanks NYRA.

The Indomitable DrugS 08-08-2010 06:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileyoriley (Post 680221)
The classic hasn't been run yet and Blame won the Whitney. Can't change what happened nor predict what will. I won't try.
Who cares who "won" the race?

That only matters if you own the horse, train the horse, rode the horse, or in that instance bet the horse.

If you attract new people to racing who "won't try" to predict what will happen ... what good would this possibly do? Other than create more people who think Pepper's Pride would beat Sharp Cat.

RockHardTen1985 08-08-2010 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileyoriley (Post 680222)
I think I'll wait and see who enters first.:)

Its ok, Im keeping it to myself this time.

Rileyoriley 08-08-2010 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 680228)
Who cares who "won" the race?

That only matters if you own the horse, train the horse, rode the horse, or in that instance bet the horse.

If you attract new people to racing who "won't try" to predict what will happen ... what good would this possibly do? Other than create more people who think Pepper's Pride would beat Sharp Cat.
I did bet the horse so I guess it matters to me. Does that mean I'll bet him in the BC? As I said in an above post, I'll wait and see who enters first.
You look at a race and form your opinion and that's fine. I may look at it and form a different opinion. Betting is all about opinions.

(Isn't Sharp Cat deceased in which case I'll pick Pepper's Pride to win.)

Rileyoriley 08-08-2010 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 680231)
Its ok, Im keeping it to myself this time.
:D

Smooth Operator 08-08-2010 07:07 PM
First female to win BCC + First 6yo to win BCC + First horse to win BCC on two different surfaces + 3 overall BC wins + Perfect 20-0 record = Horse Racing Immortality


Simple as that



Completing the equation won't be easy … odds are very much against her … but if she can pull it off … her critics will be just pissing into the wind…

The Indomitable DrugS 08-08-2010 07:19 PM
Zenyatta is a vastly overrated fraud who will be lucky to run 6th beaten 12 lengths in the BC Classic.

If she came to Saratoga - Rachel Alexandra would piss all over her - and beat her by a city block.

Sorry you had to find out this way.

RockHardTen1985 08-08-2010 07:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 680261)
Zenyatta is a vastly overrated fraud who will be lucky to run 6th beaten 12 lengths in the BC Classic.

If she came to Saratoga - Rachel Alexandra would piss all over her - and beat her by a city block.

Sorry you had to find out this way.

Your wrong Doug, but keep dreaming **** face.

Danzig 08-08-2010 07:22 PM
well, new york is out of the question...so we'll just have to speculate on all that.

the_fat_man 08-08-2010 07:24 PM
No speculation as to which horse was a NO SHOW for their previous 'engagement'. :rolleyes:


The rest is rhetoric.

The Indomitable DrugS 08-08-2010 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 680264)
Your wrong Doug, but keep dreaming **** face.
You might have a point chubby ... the older males and 3yo divisions both look very soft.

Let me revise that and say she will run 6th beaten 10.5 lengths.


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