Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122393387064230201.html

This is a good piece (non partisan)

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

it's ugly.

i like mccain. i cast a meaningless vote for him the 2000 california primary well after bush had locked up the nomination.

i think this is the price we pay as a nation for the lee atwater/karl rove lie to the easily deceived style of politics.

the fact that it's going to turn around and cost them a few more senate, house and state legislative seats does give me a nice sense of schadenfreude. i admit to that character flaw.

i try not to think about how different things could be if mccain hadn't been smeared in s carolina. or if people weren't so f'in stupid they buy crap like mccain had a black child out of wedlock or obama was a muslim.

i despair for a country where the short term political benefit of such lies makes smart people tell them to idiotic sheep.

Originally Posted by pgardn

Ok.
I will try.

1. He will bring in the best advisors he possilby can. Obama has proclaimed he will not put "friends" in high places, just the best people he can find, including Republicans.

2. He is a natural leader. I believe he really believes he can make a difference. I dont believe this is just an ego trip. The job is way too tough for that. The guy has shown a penchant most for turning down bucks and actually trying to aid in public service. I really think he wants to be a public servant.

3. He is the most likely Democrat to bridge the difference between the parties. I dont think Hillary (given her hubby and the past) could be as effective at trying to make things better in this realm. The Republicans have had 8 years. It may have been very bad timing, but in this time things have not gone well. And yes change, just for the sake of change, can be good. I thought this was part of the idea of having term limits.

4. Obama has a history of being very pragmatic. If a consensus and logic convinces him that deep tax hikes on large companies would not be good, he will not do it. His history indicates he tries very hard to seek a consensus and does not really rely on his gut instincts to do things. He apparently is a very good listener. And he wants a variety of opinions, imo. I do not think he is bullheaded and inflexible.

As far as the real issues.
1. Obama will not be able to fix Health care. No one will in 4 years.
2. He will probably continue the same sort of policy as Bush in Iraq with the exception of trying to move more troops out of Iraq and into Afghanistan with rapidity. He will be told he cannot just pull out of Iraq. He knows this.
3. The economy I dont believe can really be turned by any single President quickly. So what McCain proposes v. what Obama proposes will not make a huge difference in the short run.

And here is what I believe to be the sad part: If he was actually beaten by McCain at this point (ie being significantly ahead; no modern day president has lost with this much of a lead in the polls), it would be interpreted by many to be America just could not handle a black guy being president. Look how many lied to the pollsters. Right or wrong, it would create a great deal of suspicion.

The goal of both candidates right now is to get elected. What they present to the masses will not dictate what they will actually be required to do when if office. Obama will piss off a good number of liberal Democrats just like McCain would have with Republicans.

Way too much crapola.
Sorry Morty and Pants if ... nah they wont read it thru
as most will not.
I dont blame em.

Originally Posted by geeker2

Thanks pgardn ... that was a good post :tro:

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

When she visits be sure to grind her body parts up and feed them to sumwonlovesu.

Originally Posted by GPK

I'm game for that.




































How bout them 'Skins:D :D :wf

Originally Posted by Danzig

at this point, i think it's a falsehood that either party doesn't believe in big govt. too many now look at the party and want to know what it's done for them. then there's the states having shuffled most of their responsibilities onto the feds as well.

Originally Posted by Danzig

those three points you made? that's what he'll do? well, whoopie. i don't care how good a speaker is-actions speak louder than any words; he can't lower taxes unless congress sends him a bill to lower taxes, and the war will end whether he gets in there or not.
and the middle class might be happy with a tax break, but when the businesses they work for leave on the same track as those who have gone before, to cheaper labor south of the border for instance, it won't do those folks much good. raising corporate taxes is not a way to grow the economy, to create jobs...it will however temporarily raise the amount of spending that obama has promised. the 'evil' businesses we all either work for or operate pay a lot already-much of their employees health care, they equal the amount taken out in social security benefits, pay workers comp and unemployment insurance, etc. and now a tax increase on the people who pay all our wages. you really think the owners, stockholders, top execs are going to take a hit to pay for that loss? hell no. that will trickle down to the workers as well. two things happen when a business sees less on the bottom line. what can we cut, what prices can we raise? it's never, gee, i guess i'll take a hit on my income so my workers still get their due.

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

why is "he isn't bush" good enough?

i know it violates geek's completely artificial rules but when most of the country is voting democratic because the republicans hitched their wagon to a punchline the last 8 years, why do the rest of us need to explain things further?

we're electing a black guy. that's not because we're such an advanced society. and we could have elected a chick. that's how bad you f'd up.

stop lining up behind retards for most of a decade and deserving people like mccain won't get swamped.

Originally Posted by Danzig

those three points you made? that's what he'll do? well, whoopie. i don't care how good a speaker is-actions speak louder than any words; he can't lower taxes unless congress sends him a bill to lower taxes, and the war will end whether he gets in there or not.
and the middle class might be happy with a tax break, but when the businesses they work for leave on the same track as those who have gone before, to cheaper labor south of the border for instance, it won't do those folks much good. raising corporate taxes is not a way to grow the economy, to create jobs...it will however temporarily raise the amount of spending that obama has promised. the 'evil' businesses we all either work for or operate pay a lot already-much of their employees health care, they equal the amount taken out in social security benefits, pay workers comp and unemployment insurance, etc. and now a tax increase on the people who pay all our wages. you really think the owners, stockholders, top execs are going to take a hit to pay for that loss? hell no. that will trickle down to the workers as well. two things happen when a business sees less on the bottom line. what can we cut, what prices can we raise? it's never, gee, i guess i'll take a hit on my income so my workers still get their due.

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

hey scuds do you live with your parents?

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

You are such a Republican(just accept it.) This masquerading is embarassing to watch. "I love guns, hunting, and big business. However, I am not a Republican. I'm Independent." Why are you so against just accepting you are a Republican? It's amazing the lengths people will go to try to make themselves stick out from the crowd. Everything I have ever seen you write about economics has been in support of having just 2 classes of people.

Originally Posted by Danzig

yawn

i'm sure i'd be accepted by them. as soon as i said i was pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, i'd imagine i'd be shown the door.


edit~instead of attacking me, why don't you just explain what i've got wrong about what i wrote, and what the truth is about small businesses, corporations, and the taxes they pay?
naaah, won't happen. so much easier to attack the messenger.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

You are such a Republican(just accept it.) This masquerading is embarassing to watch. "I love guns, hunting, and big business. However, I am not a Republican. I'm Independent." Why are you so against just accepting you are a Republican? It's amazing the lengths people will go to try to make themselves stick out from the crowd. Everything I have ever seen you write about economics has been in support of having just 2 classes of people.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I'm not attacking what you said. I'm just saying it's Republican. I can't change your views. I'm just saying you're a Republican. I think your views are in line with Log Cabin Republicans.

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

I like reefer, Bob Marley, and the outdoors, but I have voted Republican in the past. Am I not an Independant or just too stoned to realize what I am doing?


I figure since you are the party Chuch Lady you can tell me.

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't know much about 'blue dog' dems, but i know they're supposed to be fiscally conservative. does that mean they're closet republicans?

i just want to know how, if you make it harder for businesses to meet what they've set as their bottom line, it's a good thing? i work for a business, i help do the budgets. i know what the margins are, and i know what the profits are. i also know that the owner has his idea of what he should make. if the cost of doing business rises, i also know it's not him who will be cut back. now, it's all well and good to say that corporations make a lot of money, and need to pay their fair share. but i think it's ignoring reality to think that the ceo, the cfo, or the vp's, stockholders or owners are the ones who are going to take the hit when the bottom line looks like it will be lowered. prices will go up for their goods and services, or the amount of employees will be lowered. but stockholders will get their share, and the fat cats will still get fed. so, how does any of that help the middle class?

my concern when i ask these questions is not showing concern for the rich. i'm concerned for myself, and my co-workers and others just like them.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

No, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them comes to live with me someday. I want to talk to my dad, and he usually can't hear me. I don't want to talk to my mom, and she hears everything.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Read what she wrote about economics above. If you believe that, then you're a Republican. If you believe what she wrote, and you also think everyone should get their own damn fire department, then you're a Libertarian. I think it's economic views that really describe where people fall politically. The Social Values stuff (ABORTION etc, ) is secondary. I don't think many Democrats would believe what she wrote about economics, but many would be against abortion n' gay anything(a lot of Catholics are in this zone...actually the Catholic Church Teachings are that of a Democrat who is against abortion n' gay anything.)

Originally Posted by Danzig

well, now this is interesting....while i had the time, i did a search on corporate taxes. now, since i say that no corporate taxes should be raised i was told i'm a republican. that keeping corporate taxes low is a republican idea....and i found this:

"On the campaign trail, McCain portrays Obama as an eager supporter of higher taxes who is unwilling to buck his own party, while Obama often charges that McCain's policies would help the wealthy and strand blue-collar workers.

"Both of them would raise corporate taxes but not the rate," said Roberton Williams, a principal research associate at the Washington-based nonpartisan Tax Policy Institute.

"Both of them would raise taxes by closing some loopholes that allow corporations to reduce their taxable income," he told the Reuters Wealth Management Summit."


so, tell me again...mccain is a rep, but is also advocating raising corporate taxes. i also strongly disagree with his idea of taxing our insurance benefits. so, i'm a republican....but i disagree with the republican candidate. it's all becoming clearer. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Blue Dog Democrats don't believe what you wrote about economics. That's about all they disagree with Republicans on. They favor a 3 class society, and Republicans favor just a 2 class society.

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-...ate-taxes.html

interesting stuff...

It's bipartisan. Among people who have called either for a reduction in or elimination of corporate taxes are John McCain, Charlie Rangel, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Milton Friedman, Lester Thurow.


Some 70 percent of the corporate tax burden is borne by workers in the form of lower wages and fewer high-paying jobs

An EU study of 50,000 companies found that a 1 percent increase in marginal corporate income tax rates leads to a 0.92 percent decrease in real wages.



It's a hidden tax: Even workers get hit by it, but they don't know it because they don't directly pay the tax.

For every dollar the government collects in revenue, the corporate tax may actually cost the government $1 in revenue through slower economic growth

Originally Posted by Danzig

i just want to know what i've got 'wrong' on all this. apparently it's because i own guns and (gasp) hunt. oh, i fish too. thought i'd throw that little tidbit of evil in there as well.

and in one of the above, it said japan (currently the highest corporate taxes in the world) may lower their rate, which would make the u.s. #1 in taxes in that respect.

Originally Posted by Danzig

i just want to know what i've got 'wrong' on all this. apparently it's because i own guns and (gasp) hunt. oh, i fish too. thought i'd throw that little tidbit of evil in there as well.

and in one of the above, it said japan (currently the highest corporate taxes in the world) may lower their rate, which would make the u.s. #1 in taxes in that respect.

Originally Posted by geeker2

What scares me is they now throw around $50, $100, $200 Billion like they were betting $2 exacta's...right after "try lower limit" "try lower limit" "try lower limit"
:eek:

Originally Posted by Rileyoriley

I've notified PETA on behalf of the deer and fish. They should be picketing you shortly you Bambi killer.:D

Originally Posted by Danzig

well, if they come on my lawn, i'll shoot them. it's the irresponsible gun toting thing to do. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Yeah and people complain when companies send jobs and divisions overseas...

I suppose my biggest issue is that saying something to get elected and actually believing what you are saying are two different things. This tax plan that Obamas has floated has interestingly gone unchallenged by just about everyone save the "right wing publications" like the the Wall Street Journal. Not that McCains is very good either.

Originally Posted by Rileyoriley

:tro: I like your answer. Continue on........

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

trillion is the new billion.

get with it.