no they didnt I remember, The Cliffs Edge won with Gary Stevens up

So did I and i dont know how people are remembering it wrong. It happened just as you say.

I took off my shoes and ran to the car right after cashing. Im sure there is video somewhere.

I remember the rain+lightning coming DURING the race... perhaps i'm wrong (i was there but inside the grandstand)... i recall they had lights on the finish, it got so dark...

either way, my point is if anything Birdstone VALIDATED Smarty Jones and repent has to give up on his childish battle against everyone on this horse he lost, miserably, 2 years ago. Like him or not you have to respect him.

I respect Smarty Jones but at the same time I think Repent is saying that Birdstone deserves more respect than he has ever received. The truth is, Birdstone could have been an excellent rival to Smarty in my opinion. In truth, his lame performances only came on bad tracks.

As for who was closer to the crown, i am going to go against the grain and say Afleet Alex. Alex had a much easier crop and a less than ideal trip in the derby. He was much better than the rest of the junk that was in his generation. I think Alex wins that KYD if run again. I think Smarty has a tough time winning that Belmont against those horses.

I guess you don't know the history with Repent and Smarty Jones...

IMO they BOTH should have won the TC. AA went into an area of the track in the Derby that was an absolute sandpit for some odd reason (i was sitting at the top of the stretch and EVERY horse that went over that section stopped badly, including Madcap Escapade which was a layup against her group). SJ was by far the best of his generation but unfortunately lost a vicious pace battle waged by two vindictive pinhead jockeys...

I think Smarty faced better and it took BOTH of those pinheads and a Travers winner to beat him.
Aa did go to a deeper path, but thats not quite the same.
I never answered the original question in this thread because I felt it was an insult to Smarty Jones to even consider that their was any question about this.

I've been a self confessed SJ "goo goo" right from that cold day on the Aqu inner, so I'm with you. AA earned my respect, however...

AA has my total respect, don't misunderstand me.
But SJ's Belmont may never quite get the respect it deserves. All you have to do is take a look at the chart and see where RHT and Eddington finished and that they had dropped dead before they even made the turn.
Imagine how great SJ was to have gotten beat a length after geing hounded on both sides by two horses who stopped to a complete walk suffering the effects of the same duel? And he was still miles clear of the third horse.
Thats the bravest race I ever saw a horse run.

Not to forget, the original horse he was up front with (Purge) spit the bit and finished dead last, beaten almost 40 lengths. SJ was the gamest horse i've ever seen in person. I cried my eyeballs out when he won the Derby... (having hit for about $8k didn't hurt either!!)

I really was and not afraid to admit it (didn't go to CD that year even though I tried desperately to find a flight at the last minute)... i cashed a futures bet on him at 150-1 and i just got really emotionally attached watching him progress through the preps. never had before (i'm a bettor first) and haven't since.

I think about "what could have been" a lot... I have a nice framed photo of him winning the Derby in my house so it's a good reminder!

Thanks! it was a once in a lifetime thing, probably.

Pedigree 'capping really seems to have hit a wall in the Derby. That year's sires were miler-miler-miler-sprinter, last year (well, holy bull was good at everything)-sprint-miler, this year was long-all-long. no real pattern versus the old days where if you didn't have the longwinded pedigree you were a pretty easy toss.

A friend of mine had sent me the BRIS numbers and they actually had him rated #1 from his 2nd race on, plus it confirmed my figure on the Aqu race... (had it about 10 points higher than Beyer)

There was a few years there (Distorted Humor, Elusive Quality, Northern Afleet) where sprinters were siring Classic winners. Darned if that didn't throw the breeding experts into a tizzy.

Yeah slot, but those "experts" got up off the mat pretty quickly and explained to us how they were right anyway.
All you have to is go back far enough in the pedigree until you get to a stamina sire(go far enough back and you can find one in just about any horse), and then explain that the horse they said wasn't bred to go that far was bred to go that far all along.

John..

Except that they were all carrying on the outrageous success of the Raise a Native line in the race..

But they weren't fashionable and proven to have sired a classic winner, until they did. LOL!!
My question to those experts when they start citing their statistical data always would be something like "Yeah but has Elusive Quality ever sired a horse as fast as SJ is?" or "Yeah, but has Northern Afleet ever sired a horse as good as AA is?" Blank stares usually follow, as if you have disrupted their world of stats and numbers with an impossibility too mind numbing to grasp.

To put it in another perspective. Should all the kids who wanna be tennis stars in a few years not even bother to take up the game and practice and try regardless of their passion for it, athletic ability, or talent shown?
Thing is that their is a youngster out there with the greatest tennis pedigree ever. Hes by the sire Andre Agassi out a mare named Steffi Graf(By Peter Graf) and obviously with that pedigree he will win every grand slam event he enters once hes old enough to compete. Unless of course there is a kid out there who some day grows up to be more talented and athletic, or who perhaps has more heart and desire.

Oracle,
I agree with you on this post. Very well said.
That's why I think that breeding takes a back seat to training.
That said, do you know which stallion has sired the most TC winners?
I don't, but I'll guess it's Native Dancer or Northern Dancer.
DTS