Derby Trail Forums - Greatest Living Racehorse?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 753270)

Give it up Rollo.

GZ had some Zenyatta fan like fans in his day that you could not discuss anything logically with.

I say that in the sense that I still believe GZ was an awesome horse, nor do I think the GZ fans were nearly as bad as the Zenyatta fans.

Well - Thoro-Graph did have him about 28 lengths faster than Alysheba.

I think the greatest living racehorse is Indian Charlie, hands down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2 (Post 752888)

I think it would be very difficult to make a rational case for any of these three over Holy Bull. I imagine there is at least one irrational case that could be made, but on the whole I think Holy Bull easily bests those last three.

There is really no reason to think that Holy Bull wouldn't have beaten Cigar or Ghostzapper either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 752631)

Saint Liam was an elite handicap horse and he basically took Ghostzapper to the outer rail in the stretch. Ghostzapper still won and they weren't exactly crawling home. That hardly proves anything about Ghostzapper's supposed tactical failures.

Ghostzapper was never keen or rank early in any of his route races. He let Saint Liam go early in the Woodward and he tracked Presidentialaffair in the Iselin. He took the lead in the Classic because he drew the rail. He proved over and over when sprinting that as long as you kept him outside of horses, he had no problem waiting for his cue. Suggesting he couldn't rate against top flight speed horses is silly.

I agree with almost everything you have said in this thread, except for St Liam being elite. Thats a stretch. He was good and fortunate. In 2 of his biggest races he lost as a heavy favorite to Commentator and Rock Hard Ten. Then Dutrow had to cheat to beat Commentator. Then he won the worse BC Classic I can remember. Rock Hard Tens late scratch made it even softer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 753293)

There is really no reason to think that Holy Bull wouldn't have beaten Cigar or Ghostzapper either.

Not that I disagree - but wasn't Holy Bull much more one-dimensional than Ghostzapper?

Holy Bull and Cigar belong in the same conversation. Ghostzapper....a higher level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 753300)

Not that I disagree - but wasn't Holy Bull much more one-dimensional than Ghostzapper?

He was but on his best it didn't matter, he would just run them off their feet. Don't forget that we never saw what HB could do as an older horse while GZ's career highlights were manly as an older horse in carefully selected spots.

GZ was a really good horse but he was trained by a guy who was unusually phenomenal during that time, was never entered in a race (outside of maybe the Kings Bishop which he still should have won) where everything wasn't in his favor and like Holy Bull was a sprinter that could stretch his speed. His claim to fame season consisted of two 4 horse races, a perfect trip slop race, essentially a match race and a perfect trip Classic. How this makes him better than Holy Bull is news to me.

Prized.

Oh, and Formal Gold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 753345)

I agree - but it's a textbook comparison of 4 and 5 year old form versus 3-year-old form ... and not surprisingly, Ghostzapper was clear-cut faster.

The Donn Handicap was setting up to be a great test for Holy Bull because a duel with Cigar was already underway and Bailey had established the inside position with Cigar. One bad step is all it took.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBAMVuD0zks

I think Holy Bull is the best 3-year-old to race since the 1989 season with Sunday Silence and Easy Goer ... but a Ghostzapper VS Holy Bull comparison is apples and oranges to me. Heck - so is a Holy Bull VS Cigar comparison. A lot of great 3yo's didn't progress as older horses (Easy Goer and Sunday Silence both) and quite a few have actually tailed off.