Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 660422)

for starters, most of her career was spent running against pretty mediocre fillies, high figs or not.

she also seemed to find ways to lose in the really big races she was in. Beautiful Pleasure was a really good mare, but some of these others she lost to, or struggled to beat, they left alot to be desired.

she was visually speaking, not that impressive a horse. watching her, i always felt like i was watching a plodder that was picking off tired horses that had nothing left.

i never did understand the high figs she got, as she almost always ran slow times, with slow closing fractions coming after decent to moderate paces. certainly not every time, but in the first half of her career, she screamed plodder to me.

finally, there was just this intangible quality about her that's hard to convey in a post. back in those days, i was no lover of eastern racing, but there were plenty of horses in the east that i was a big fan of. I say this, because i had the utmost confidence that she'd lose the Oaks, and both appearances in the distaff, and it had nothing to do with me being a biased fan of california racing.

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 660412)

careerwise, sure. and banshee breeze was a hell of a lot more consistent. she always showed up as you said. im just saying when they met, a neck separated them in the cca oaks and kentucky oaks. keeper hill finished in front of her in the mother goose and spinster. behind her in the personal ensign and bc distaff.

i just dont think they were that far off of each other when keeper hill was on her game. banshee breeze was always on her game.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 660234)

Rachel and Zenyatta would have drowned Banshee Breeze.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660370)

I think I made myself clear in what way you backpedaled. You wanted to compare Zenyatta and Personal Ensign earlier today ("it was a ploy") and now you don't.

To justify your backpedal you say that Zenyatta has yet to finish her career and therefore we should wait to compare her with Personal Ensign.

3 times since that post you have posted "what if" scenarios of her winning the 2010 BC Classic.

If you were as consistent as Zenyatta is we wouldn't need to keep going over this.

As for the "sanctity of the opinion" BS, if I thought your opinion should be erased I'd just become a moderator.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 660367)

Babe Ruth was a pitcher first then was a position player. He didnt do them at the same time. In 1919 he pitched for 1/2 the year before becoming a position player for good. Rick Ankiel has done the same thing albeit with much less success. Of all the sports baseball is by far the closest to the same games as the years go by.

Originally Posted by slotdirt (Post 660439)

Clemens was a pretty awesome pitcher in the 80's. Whether that was performance enhanced or not is anyone's guess.

Originally Posted by slotdirt (Post 660447)

The argument could easily be made that his best season were his Red Sox years - look at that 1986 season, for instance, was probably his best (AL MVP, Cy Young, etc.) - though his Toronto years were also pretty awesome. When did he bulk up though, that's the question? And in the late 80's, pretty much everybody was on steroids, so I'm not sure it takes that much more away from him considering every hitter he was facing probably had access to the same medicine chest.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 660411)

I am wondering what the criteria is to get her into the class of say an Azeri or Personal Ensign, its often inferred she needs to do more, I am just wondering exactly what.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 660425)

From the summer of their 3yo filly season on ... Banshee Breeze was vastly superior in every way.

The Spinster result was all about Keeneland's track bias. Banshee Breeze was 4 wide on both turns over a rail favoring race track .. Keeper Hill slipped up the rail and I believe was rail, rail on both turns ... Frankel praising it as one of the best rides.

Keeper Hill might be a 3 time Grade 1 winner .. but I think it's a huge insult to Banshee Breeze to say they had the same ability.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 660425)

From the summer of their 3yo filly season on ... Banshee Breeze was vastly superior in every way.

The Spinster result was all about Keeneland's track bias. Banshee Breeze was 4 wide on both turns over a rail favoring race track .. Keeper Hill slipped up the rail and I believe was rail, rail on both turns ... Frankel praising it as one of the best rides.

Keeper Hill might be a 3 time Grade 1 winner .. but I think it's a huge insult to Banshee Breeze to say they had the same ability.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660125)

While the 13 for 13 may not stand up to Zenyatta's 17 for 17, there is a big difference IMO between running at 2 and 3 and not starting until nearly 4 years of age ... Though in basic terms, there race records are similar, here's the essential difference between the two:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660174)

But as you suggest, these guys running the show want another Ghostzapper, not another Skip Away.

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 660467)

One needed "several screws" in her ankle after two starts while the other has been pretty much sound as a bell after 17?


By the way, upon further review of PE's Whitney … G looks to have been beyond his scope going nine … and thus quite vulnerable … and the show horse was like a hundred years old that year … and basically just a G3-type Aqueduct runner at that point.