Derby Trail Forums
Page 6 of 6 « First < 45 6
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Derby Trail Forums (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/index.php)
-   The Charles Hatton Reading Room (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=11)
-   -   I Really Wish I Could Have Seen...... (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32434)

chucklestheclown 10-28-2009 01:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
I don't know what we are really debating here. I don't know who that writer is or where he got his info but I know it's not factually correct. Some of it is though. Hollendorfer was unsure about his ability to stretch out and did think he would be best at distances up to 8f, maybe 8.5f at most. He was absolutely not planned to run in the ECR Derby though. The plan was for a break after the Hollywood Futurity and to come back in the San Vicente and the San Rafael and if all went well, to try the SA Derby. That's what was told to us. We were told that it was his shins and not his knees that kept him out of action during the summer of his 2yo season. Hollendorfer said he was really concerned though after the Hollywood Futurity with why he kept trying to get out and wouldn't take any chances. He did miss some training so he wasn't going to make the San Vicente or the San Rafael and Hollendorfer was not going to bring him back in the San Felipe. What he said was that he wasn't going to have him ready to try 9f by SA Derby time and without finding the answer to that question, he saw no sense in pushing him early in the season so he backed off and wanted to point to the summer. He said that he planned on trying to get him ready for the Affirmed and the Swaps but after his loss in May in the Gold Rush, he was still not sure the horse wanted to go beyond 8f. It was McCarron who convinced him that not only could he do it but he could be good at it. McCarron took complete blame for the loss and it was after that when the decision was made to try him longer. The reason he went to Ohio was because he didn't want to have to face Sunday Silence in the Swaps. He then figured he'd try the Jim Dandy or the Haskell, whichever one Easy Goer wasn't in. Make no mistake about it, he wasn't eager to take on either of those two at 9f and I don't blame him. After the Haskell, he wanted to go to the Travers but it never happened.
Did you own King Glorious?

CSC 10-28-2009 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
She would have been thumped soundly by BTA.... but Inside Information probably would have beaten Cigar had she run in the '95 Classic.
I wouldn’t say thumped for 2 reasons, she already had beaten Fly So Free decisively in the Molson Million and he was hardly disgraced in the Classic beaten by less than 4 lengths by a loose on the lead Black Tie Affair. The times of the Classic and Distaff were not overly dissimilar 1:50.95 & 2:02.95. I think she would have given him a better run for his money than Twilight Agenda had.

Inside Information raced against the clock in the distaff on a sloppy track earlier in the day and the time was impressive, but at 1 ¼ and on a listed stickier track in the Classic, Cigar would have broke her down, one thing times do not tell in a race are race dynamics and the pressure a horse can emit on its competition. Cigar would have tracked her, pressured her and broke her in the last furlong. I will say this she was a slop monster but as we have seen Cigar was not chopped liver on a wet track either.

King Glorious 10-28-2009 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklestheclown
Did you own King Glorious?
No.

RolloTomasi 10-28-2009 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
I don't know what we are really debating here. I don't know who that writer is or where he got his info but I know it's not factually correct. Some of it is though. Hollendorfer was unsure about his ability to stretch out and did think he would be best at distances up to 8f, maybe 8.5f at most. He was absolutely not planned to run in the ECR Derby though. The plan was for a break after the Hollywood Futurity and to come back in the San Vicente and the San Rafael and if all went well, to try the SA Derby. That's what was told to us.
As far his knee problem goes:

After King Glorious worked a half-mile last Saturday at Bay Meadows, there was a swelling in his right leg. Two veterinarians--Dennis Mulhern of UC Davis and Jack Robbins of Los Angeles--examined him and determined that the colt should be withheld from heavy training for a month.

And the El Camino Real Derby:

Hollendorfer said: "We've been downplaying the Derby even before this happened. We haven't set our goals too far ahead with this horse. Our year- end goal was the $1-million race at Hollywood Park (the Futurity) and we reached that. Then our next goal was the El Camino Real, and we're disappointed about missing that. The Kentucky Derby is too far down the road to speculate about it."

On Friday at Bay Meadows, a shipment of 16,000 baseball caps arrived, with the wording "Will the King Reign?" printed on the front. The caps were going to be given to fans attending the El Camino Real.

Some of these quotes in this and other posts come from LA Times and the NY Times (when they actually had a horse racing column in the sports page).

The Indomitable DrugS 10-29-2009 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
Cigar would have tracked her, pressured her and broke her in the last furlong. I will say this she was a slop monster but as we have seen Cigar was not chopped liver on a wet track either.
Absolutely not.

A.) Jerry Bailey wouldn't have used Cigar and forced him out of his comfort zone just to pressure a filly. Had Inside Info run in the Classic she wouldn't have been viewed as Cigar's only possible danger.

B.) horses don't run faster - they run slower races when taken out of their comfort zone to pressure another rival. See Cigar's Pacific Classic.

2nd place finisher L'Carriere, like mostly all of the horses Cigar beat, was pretty much a bum. Before running 2nd in the BC Classic .. he was 4th in the Meadowlands Cup behind former nickle claimer turned Juan Surey move-up Poor But Honest. In his start after his 2nd place finish in the BC Classic - he was 4th to Wekiva Springs.

This kind of sillyness reminds me a lot of how every single trainer I talked with up here swore Mine That Bird would have beat Rachel Alexandra in the Ky Derby. And many insisted Rachel Alexandra would have run no better than 5th in the Derby.

It's amusing how dumb people act when you talk about fillies running against males. I'm surprised there still aren't people who insist Rags To Riches would have had no shot of beating Curlin in the Belmont ... even though she actually did run in the Belmont - and actually did win the race.

CSC 10-30-2009 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
Absolutely not.

A.) Jerry Bailey wouldn't have used Cigar and forced him out of his comfort zone just to pressure a filly. Had Inside Info run in the Classic she wouldn't have been viewed as Cigar's only possible danger.

B.) horses don't run faster - they run slower races when taken out of their comfort zone to pressure another rival. See Cigar's Pacific Classic.
A couple things, yes this is generally true for some horses but not in this case when discussing Cigar. You cited the Pacific Classic and I am glad you did, infact that race and to a lesser degree the Donn Hdcp against Holy Bull showed his versatility as a horse. Bailey could ask for speed if he needed it.

In the Pacific Classic his hand was forced by an overzealous Nakatani on Dramatic Gold to run early with the legitimate speedball Siphon on the lead, the fact that he won the battle against a horse like Siphon but only to lose the war to Dare And Go post Dubai illustrates to me he would have fractured Inside Information in the classic(again 1/8th farther than the Distaff and a yr earlier when he was probably better) had she ran. In 95 there is no way Inside Information could have won the battle and survived the war against Cigar, and I don't even think he would have had to run with her early, all he would have had to have done is lay off of her, make that sweeping move on the turn and cruise on by per his normal MO.

Indian Charlie 10-30-2009 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
A couple things, yes this is generally true for some horses but not in this case when discussing Cigar. You cited the Pacific Classic and I am glad you did, infact that race and to a lesser degree the Donn Hdcp against Holy Bull showed his versatility as a horse. Bailey could ask for speed if he needed it.

In the Pacific Classic his hand was forced by an overzealous Nakatani on Dramatic Gold to run early with the legitimate speedball Siphon on the lead, the fact that he won the battle against a horse like Siphon but only to lose the war to Dare And Go post Dubai illustrates to me he would have fractured Inside Information in the classic(again 1/8th farther than the Distaff and a yr earlier when he was probably better) had she ran. In 95 there is no way Inside Information could have won the battle and survived the war against Cigar, and I don't even think he would have had to run with her early, all he would have had to have done is lay off of her, make that sweeping move on the turn and cruise on by per his normal MO.
If Cigar had tried to sit off II in that circumstance, that race would have been over before it started.

His only hope, and it would have been a slim one at best, would have been to try to duel her into submission.

CSC 10-30-2009 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
If Cigar had tried to sit off II in that circumstance, that race would have been over before it started.

His only hope, and it would have been a slim one at best, would have been to try to duel her into submission.
At 1 1/4 she may have backed up herself, if I were the Jockey of Cigar I would simply not let her get more than a length away from me, forcing her to make a decision to run faster or slow down, either way Cigar would have finished faster than her at 1 1/4 or even 1 1/8th, he already has shown he could run with Siphon and Holy Bull even for 1/2 a race and fare well, she would be a step down.

King Glorious 10-30-2009 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
At 1 1/4 she may have backed up herself, if I were the Jockey of Cigar I would simply not let her get more than a length away from me, forcing her to make a decision to run faster or slow down, either way Cigar would have finished faster than her at 1 1/4 or even 1 1/8th, he already has shown he could run with Siphon and Holy Bull even for 1/2 a race and fare well, she would be a step down.
She wasn't a step down from Siphon.

CSC 10-30-2009 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
She wasn't a step down from Siphon.
Really it depends if you are looking at what and where she was racing on, she was at her best at Belmont and she was very proficient on off tracks, no surprise being she was by slop sire Private Account. For argugent's sake, do you think she would have been close to Siphon and Cigar had she run in the Pacific Classic?

King Glorious 10-30-2009 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
Really it depends if you are looking at what and where she was racing on, she was at her best at Belmont and she was very proficient on off tracks, no surprise being she was by slop sire Private Account. For argugent's sake, do you think she would have been close to Siphon and Cigar had she run in the Pacific Classic?
It might have come out the same way it did. Her and Siphon may have compromised each other. But I do think she was better than both of them though, by a lot over Siphon and by a little over Cigar.

CSC 10-30-2009 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
It might have come out the same way it did. Her and Siphon may have compromised each other. But I do think she was better than both of them though, by a lot over Siphon and by a little over Cigar.
She had a great record against fillies, and we were left with an indelible memory in her last race. Until a filly tries open company, she can't even be put in the same league of Cigar, if you are saying she was better than him you are saying quite alot, but do remember what happened to Azeri when she tried the colts.

RolloTomasi 10-30-2009 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
It might have come out the same way it did. Her and Siphon may have compromised each other. But I do think she was better than both of them though, by a lot over Siphon and by a little over Cigar.
Inside Information certainly was consistent, but I don't recall her races being particularly fast or impressive outside of the lopsided BC.

And though she outlasted them all, at 3 she was no better than 3rd or 4th amongst Heavenly Prize, Lakeway, and Sardula. Really, some their efforts as 2 and 3yos outweigh anything she ultimately did as a 4yo.

Meanwhile, Siphon ran some wickedly fast races at a variety of distances (6-10f) from '95-'97.

Antitrust32 10-30-2009 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
She had a great record against fillies, and we were left with an indelible memory in her last race. Until a filly tries open company, she can't even be put in the same league of Cigar, if you are saying she was better than him you are saying quite alot, but do remember what happened to Azeri when she tried the colts.

you are sexist towards fillies! now i know!!! ;) :D

CSC 10-30-2009 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32
you are sexist towards fillies! now i know!!! ;) :D
I know you are joking, but I actually have paid quite a few compliments here with many fillies. :p (Is this the proper emoticon?)

King Glorious 10-30-2009 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
She had a great record against fillies, and we were left with an indelible memory in her last race. Until a filly tries open company, she can't even be put in the same league of Cigar, if you are saying she was better than him you are saying quite alot, but do remember what happened to Azeri when she tried the colts.
I don't agree that a filly has to beat open company. Goodbye Halo didn't face the boys in 1988 but we saw her beat Winning Colors in the Las Virgenes and lost to her by a narrow margin in the BC so we know she was in the same league as any of the boys were that year.

Azeri didn't try the boys when she was at her best. You say remember what happened to Azeri. Why not say remember what happened to Winning Colors, Rags to Riches, Rachel Alexandra, Goldikova, Zarkava, Lady's Secret, Miesque, Ridgewood Pearl, Safely Kept.........I could go on and on and on?

Antitrust32 10-30-2009 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
I know you are joking, but I actually have paid quite a few compliments here with many fillies. :p (Is this the proper emoticon?)

:tro:

Antitrust32 10-30-2009 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
I don't agree that a filly has to beat open company. Goodbye Halo didn't face the boys in 1988 but we saw her beat Winning Colors in the Las Virgenes and lost to her by a narrow margin in the BC so we know she was in the same league as any of the boys were that year.

Azeri didn't try the boys when she was at her best. You say remember what happened to Azeri. Why not say remember what happened to Winning Colors, Rags to Riches, Rachel Alexandra, Goldikova, Zarkava, Lady's Secret, Miesque, Ridgewood Pearl, Safely Kept.........I could go on and on and on?

Ouigi Board.. makyvi Diva (sp?).. Pride.. that one really good mare Sunshine something from some Asian country...

The best mares beat the colts (well if given the opportunity of course)

King Glorious 10-30-2009 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32
Ouigi Board.. makyvi Diva (sp?).. Pride.. that one really good mare Sunshine something from some Asian country...

The best mares beat the colts (well if given the opportunity of course)
Last year, Zarkava beat Goldikova. The two best horses in Europe were both fillies (3yo fillies at that) so why should they have to beat males that aren't as good as they are to prove how good they are? Same with Rachel and Zenyatta this year. Either would prove more by beating the other one that they could prove by beating males.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:14 AM.
Page 6 of 6 « First < 45 6
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.