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cmorioles Churchill Downs Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Moore, OK Posts: 1,959 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by Riot Here's your challenge: give any objective evidence at all to prove that lasix is harmful to horses. you, cm replied: Where have I ever said it was harmful? I am quite sure I have never said that. Feel free to keep making things up though. then there's this exchange: 05-10-2012, 09:11 PM cmorioles Churchill Downs Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Moore, OK Posts: 1,959 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by Danzig and i will ask for a third time, how can you know if a horse will bleed? or when? and thinking isn't a fact, it's an opinion. this was your reply cm: 'You can't.' but yeah, you're right on....i don't know what you've written. feel free to attack my writing skills rather than stick to the points. i've never claimed to be an english or writing major, so i'm sorry if i don't put things together too well. however, i do remember what i've read, and who wrote it. |
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again, what is best for the horse? |
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Cute. But anyone with a pulse sees right through it. Refute Dr. Hinchcliff's (you know, the guy who proved lasix was effective under actual race conditions) conclusions. Quote:
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But enough of that duck-and-dive tactic you're so good at. You're cherry-picking my last post. Why don't you comment on the mechanism of action of furosemide and how, according to your claim, it does not affect acid-base balance in a racing Thoroughbred? The lay people want to know. Quote:
Ironically, some states, such as New York have two thresholds for total CO2. 37 mmol/L and 39 mmol/L. Anyone know which horses are held to the higher (that's the 39 level for the non-mathematicians here) threshold? Yep, you guessed it. It's for horses that were administered lasix. Interesting that the rules of racing seem to suggest that lasix alters the acid-base status (specifically, has an alkalinizing effect) of a horse. No? Quote:
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Dr. Warwick Bayly: "...this review emphasizes issues that relate to the highly controversial subject of furosemide use in racehorses." (2000) Do we need those pesky lay people to voice their concern, too? Or are we good here? |
"However, you should probably come up with a reason why you oppose the direct and specific medical advice of the veterinary profession, who says that doing what you want is not best for the health and welfare of the horse. "
This part is easy. Given the current state of the game, why in the world should we trust vets? Many are associated with the "move up" trainers that are ruining the game. |
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One of the reasons behind the banning of "milkshaking" is that horsemen can alter the outercome of a race by employing an "on-and-off" regimen (one race given, one race not given) of bicarbonate. With lasix, most jurisdictions allow a range of lasix from 150mg to 500mg. Is there room there to alter a horse's performance? If I have a severe bleeder whose bleeding is controlled only with the higher dose of lasix, what happens if I up and decide to give him the bare minimum in his next race? |
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For example, you say this: Quote:
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:D Why don't you support your own crazy claim that it does? You made a weird claim, completely outside of known medical knowledge and experience, prove it. Cutting and pasting random quotes, while completely ignoring the basic physiology and misunderstanding what you are reading, is hilarious and sad. Start with chloride and the ascending loop of Henle. You see, you actually have to understand what you are going on about. Just googling and posting doesn't make you a lasix expert. Believe me - I am a lasix expert, and you've repeatedly demonstrated you are clueless. Please - stick to gambling. Leave medicine and veterinary advice to the experts. You are free to hold the completely opposite opinion than the entire medical veterinary medical community on this subject, but having you argue basic physiology and pharmacology from a level of zero obvious knowledge - by cutting and pasting - is simply uncomfortable to watch. But ... you are just repeating what some in this sport are doing, falsifying and ignoring all the relevant information, in an effort to further their own preconceived agenda. But when they step into our realm, the medical realm, and really start with the lies, we're calling bull.sh.i.at. on that stuff. The funny thing is that on the equine veterinarian private blogs, we are talking about this, too. Very different discussion, as you might guess. |
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i don't know, what will happen? one other question...what benefits do you anticipate if lasix is banned? |
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There's a reason for that. Bad science and bad logic is nothing more than that. Again, think Jenny McCarthy, vaccination, autuism. |
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If a drug benefits members of your competition more than it benefits you ... it brings you closer together and you lose a performance edge. |
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Do you think lasix is a therapeutic drug, or not? |
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i just wonder if this latest hot topic will be like poly a few years back in california? look where the synthetic mandate ended up. i can't help but think that if you start having hemorraging horses on the track they won't back-pedal in a hurry. and there have been instances where a horse bled so severely they went down in a race. |
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Again, refute the statement: "...we believe our results present clear and unequivocal evidence of an association between use of furosemide and superior performance in Thoroughbred racehorses." Quote:
You are completely trying to steer away from what was said. There are two separate threshold levels for total carbon dioxide used in New York to identify "milkshaked" horses, not a range. One for horses not receiving lasix. One for horses receiving lasix. The latter is allowed a higher threshold (ie more total carbon dioxide ergo more bicarbonate). Why is that? You trying to cover up this fact with a blanket of statistical nonsense is pathetic beyond belief. As to "other things" that affect total CO2 values, I never said lasix was the only thing that did. Why would I? The point of testing for total CO2 is to discover horses that have been "milkshaked", not administered lasix. Quote:
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The onus is on you. This is not hot potato. Quote:
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Obviously your bark is loud. Now put up and fucl<ing bite already. Quote:
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Is Madeleine Stowe leading the discussion? |
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See, quoting sentences in a vacuum, without understanding, isn't a very good debate tactic when you are ignorant of the subject matter. Quote:
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You don't have the first clue regarding what you are talking about. You don't have the knowledge of pharmacology or physiology. You are cutting and pasting words without meaning. Again: you are the guy sitting at the corner of the bar, pontificating on how to do open heart surgery. It's sad. Just stop. |
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I can show you a lot of old past performances of horses who never used lasix and fired big races everytime. Some of them from as recently as the 1990's. |
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on the latter-you don't have to use the stuff. i just would hate to see those who need it not be able to have it. |
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When my father trained horses, one of the horses he moved way up was a speed horse called G. J. From Ioway. He credited all of his improvement to simply changing his bit. |
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PS: Do you know when Strong Commitment became a $5K claimer at Mountaineer? |
3/24/2012
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Saying you know more than me so it must be so doesn't cut it. You can't be this daft. Quote:
Nevertheless, why would there need to be compensatory mechanisms if lasix doesn't have an alkalinizing effect as previously stated? Wipe off the rearview kids, cuz we're about to go backwards. Quote:
I guess its no surprise then that these idiotic racing officials are ruining racing. They're listening to the "wrong" veterinary advice. Not the secret, "right stuff". Chuck Yeager couldn't outrun the BS spewing out of your mouth. Quote:
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Why don't you read page 2 of the link in the first post of this thread, and anything on that page you think is specifically false, list it here, and we'll discuss it. |
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You successfully avoided answering any of the questions I put forth. You've taken us on a merry-go-round ride of BS and have buried the relevant issues I brought to the table. You're such an asset to this board. Dare I say, in the words of the great Uncle Leon, you've "topsy turvied this motherfucl<er!" You can rest and breathe easy now. Everyone is still under the impression that you "know" everything. Is the walkway leading to your front door made from yellow bricks? |
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Again: you read page 2 of the PDF at the top of this thread about lasix, and any thing you think is a lie, or false, or not true about lasix, post it here and we'll discuss it. |
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Making a horse bleed before treating them is asinine and irresponsible. Do you wait to have a heart attack before you go on a aspirin regime? Millions of people take a drug everyday and a large percentage of them will never have a heart attack. |
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If the possiblity exists that bicarbonate loading affects performance, then ideally administering "milkshakes" should be prohibited. If the possibility exists that altering the dose of lasix affects performance, then ideally the dose of lasix should be standardized (eg, by body weight) at the very least. Quote:
1) Your horse receives 150mg of lasix for a race. The horse wins. Post-race, the horse is found to have bled a Grade 3 (scale 0 to 4). Assuming no further complications, how do you treat the horse for its next start, at the same class level? 2) Your horse receives 150mg of lasix for a race. The horse runs poorly. Post-race, the horse is found to have bled a Grade 3. Assuming no further complications, how do you treat the horse for its next start, at the same class level? |
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The problem is the people currently doing the testing really have no idea how to measure thoroughbred performance during races, and neither do veterinarians. There are plenty of people that do and could be used as consultants if anyone really had the desire to know. The problem is such an experiment would cost a ton of money and also would require people to let their horses be used in the study. Outside of that, all I can do is draw conclusions based on the data and experience I've accumulated over the years. I would say with 95 percent certainty that it is a performance enhancer. That is my opinion and I'll stand by it until it is proven otherwise. One good thing has come out of this finally. You admitted it hasn't been proven that Lasix IS NOT a performance enhancer. I do find it funny that the alleged positives can be tested and proven, yet you claim the single biggest negative can never be tested. Of course it can be tested. It just depends on how badly people want to know the answer. |
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Before anybody lectures me on how everybody loves horses, I'll offer up Anew, a horse that ran in the last race at Penn National tonight. He is an 11 year old gelding that came back to the races off a 4 and a half layoff. Yes, 4 and a half years. Steve Asmussen was the trainer. He brought the former stakes winner back for 25k claimers, lost, and dropped him to 15k. He lost interest in a hurry. Luckily for him, he washed his hands of the horse when David "the butcher" Jacobson claims him. Jacobson enters him back for 7.5k and wins a purse, hooray, then runs him for 15k and loses badly. He decides to ship him to Prx where he dumps him in a 7.5k conditioned race, the horse dumps the rider at the start, and runs around the track only to return to a new barn. Yes, some idiot named Richard Vega was dumb enough to claim him. The horse race tonight for the fourth time under Vega's "care". After three miserable efforts at Prx for 7.5k, the horse was shipped to Pen to run for 4k where again he was not competitive. So, what is the point? I'm tired of hearing this "the horse comes first" bullsh!t, because that is what it is...bullsh!t. Sure, the guy at Pen is some loser trainer that is probably trying to scrape by and recoup some money. That doesn't excuse him from the way this horse is being handled. But forget him for a minute. The other horses are big names in the game. Jacobson is a leading trainer on the biggest circuit in the game, the NYRA circuit. Asmussen is one of the biggest trainers in the game, period. So, I ask again, spare me the "it is in the best interest of the horse" crap. We all know that line is only used when it is convenient to use it. We also know for every Anew out there, I could scan the PPs every week and find several horses just like him. Three trainers, two nationally prominent, have had the chance to do the right thing. None of them have. |
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They've even been quoted in the threads about lasix you write in, but apparently don't read. Quote:
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I also would submit that the testing methods were woefully flawed. The performance measurements were obviously designed by people that knew little about actual racing and how to measure performance. |
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Nowhere did I say this was all horsemen. It certainly isn't. But it isn't a rare breed either. |
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