the funeral director said there was no sign on martins body to indicate a fight of any kind.

and i've also heard the claim that zimmerman used the word 'coon' as a racial epithet on the 911 call. one of his friends went on t.v. and tried to say no, he said 'goon'. yeah, ok. i'd imagine it's based on that comment that many are saying it was racially motivated.

I think Trayvon's father would know his son's voice. When they played him the tape, he said that the voice yelling for help was not Trayvon. Later he changed his mind but he likely changed his mind after he realized that it would hurt his case if he admitted that it was the other guy that was screaming for help.

I'm certainly no expert on voice recognition but I am still pretty skeptical that they could tell whether it was Zimmerman by comparing his "speaking voice" with his "screaming for help voice". Even from what the article said, it is certainly not an exact science like DNA. It will be interesting to see if any other voice recognition experts come forward and have the opposite opinion of the experts cited in the article.

It is certainly possible that Zimmerman is lying and that he is the one that initiated the physical confrontation. Then maybe when he was losing the fight, he pulled out his gun and shot Trayvon. I can't totally rule that out. If that is what happened then that would not be self-defense. That would probably be manslaughter. But even if that is what happened, they still have to prove it. They have to come up with some evidence that shows that Zimmerman's version of what happened is false.

There is no evidence that Zimmerman got any punches in. Nobody has claimed that Zimmerman punched Trayvon. The claim is that Trayvon punched Zimmerman a few times and banged Zimmerman's head on the ground. I wouldn't expect Trayvon to have any bruises.

I've never punched anyone before. Does it leave bruises on your knuckle if you punch someone a few times? If so, did the funeral director really examine Trayvon's knuckles that closely? He's the funeral director. He's not a medical examiner doing an autopsy. I highly doubt that he examined Trayvon's knuckles, and even if he did, I highly doubt that he has the expertise to be able to tell you whether Trayvon punched someone a few times.

just saw a headline this morning that the voice recognition guy said the screams weren't zimmerman.
and of course he will say trayvon attacked him-he just killed someone. you think he's not going to say he was defending himself?? the fact is had he not gotten out of his car and gone after him-which is what they told him not to do-we wouldn't be having this conversation. he had no reason to get out of the car, he had no reason or right to confront trayvon. on what basis did he accost the boy? and exactly what did he think he was going to accomplish by approaching a total stranger-with him having absolutely no authority to do so. even if he were a member of neighborhood watch-note the name. WATCH. no, try to emulate clint eastwood.
put yourself in trayvons shoes. you're walking home, with skittles and a drink. some guy is following you, which freaks you out. the guy's not a cop, not in a cop car, not a security guy. just a total stranger.

read the article, actually two different voice experts said the voice yelling 'help' was not zimmerman.

here's this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1053821

note where it says police video shows no evidence of any injury to zimmerman.

Now why would someone at NBC do this?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...g.html?hpid=z6

why would they do what? edit the conversation to misinform or project a point of view, or do the investigation? the former is reprehensible (and happens far too often, in far too many situations), the latter is a good move.

More likely a case of lazy journalism, see it all too often on networks.

It isn't lazy journalism is if it was done intentionally.

I read the article about the voice experts. That is what I was referring to in that post. Genuine Risk had posted a link to that article and I was responding to it.

With regard to some media outlets saying that the police video shows no evidence of injury to Zimmerman, that is their interpretation of the video. Other media outlets have said the exact opposite about the video. I think you can clearly see evidence of injury to the back of Zimmerman's head on the video. Check out the still photo:
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/po...w-head-injury/

One of the officers said it was bad enough that he thought Zimmerman was going to need several stitches to close it.

He probably got out his car and followed on foot because he wanted to be able to tell the police where Trayvon was when they got there. Trayvon had left the street and had gone down a grass path. Zimmerman would have lost him at that point if he didn't follow him on foot.

We don't know if Zimmerman had any intention of confronting Trayvon in any way. What may have happened is when he ran after Trayvon down the grass and then turned the corner, he found himself face to face with him. Zimmerman may have never planned on coming face to face with him.

I agree with you that it is possible that Zimmerman was the one who started the physical altercation. I can't sit here and tell you for sure that Zimmerman is telling the truth and that Trayvon attacked him first. Zimmerman could be lying. I haven't ruled that out. To answer your question about what justification Zimmerman had to attack Trayvon, if Zimmerman did in fact attack Trayvon first, I would say Zimmerman would have no justification. If that was how it happened, then Zimmerman is probably guilty of manslaughter.

I agree with you that Trayvon was probably scared or at least concerned when he saw some stranger following him. We will probably never know exactly what was said between the two of him. They say that Trayvon asked Zimmerman, "Why are you following me?" They say Zmmerman asked, "What are you doing here?" I wonder if Trayvon ever told him that he was simply going to his father's house. I wonder if Zimmerman ever told Trayvon that he was simply doing a neighborhood watch.

Dispatcher told him specifically NOT TO FOLLOW. Anything that happend after that conversation would make him the agressor if I were on the jury.

What the hell? This American citizen wasn't doing anything illegal. Are we no longer allowed to walk in our neighborhoods without Zimmermans' permission? He was walking while black. Period.

I don't give a damn what happened or what was said when Zimmerman decided to intrude upon this boy, or what happened when Trayvon defended himself from an attack by a stranger: Zimmerman killed this boy with deadly force for no reason. "Fear of his life" - in a fist fight? With a one-hundred pound weight advantage?

The police are supposed to protect us from being randomly killed by fellow crazy citizens.

Their investigation stunk. Now others have taken that over. Thank god.

that's right. but then rupert keeps talking about neighborhood watch-the guy wasn't a member of nw.
i think all of us can imagine being in trayvons shoes. zimmerman had no business approaching him or questioning him. it wasn't his place, and the kid was doing nothing wrong. since when is walking down the street a sign of wrongdoing?? and you better believe if i thought some nut was following me i'd try to lose him too. poor trayvon, behaving normally gets him killed because some guy doesn't behave normally.

It doesn't matter if this Zimmerman was an "official" member of a neighborhood watch or not. You don't gain any special dispensations whatsoever by being a member of a neighborhood watch.

If Zimmerman was indeed an "official" member of a neighborhood watch, and thus "trained" in NW, that makes it far worse: he's carrying a gun and pursuing innocent citizens with deadly force.

And again: watching the videotape, as Zimmerman walks around the garage and into booking (another room with good light), there are multiple views, and there is no head wound or facial wounds on Zimmerman, and zero blood, grass, dirt, dampness either the front or back or sides of his coat and tee shirt he was wearing at the time.

Are you sure Zimmerman didn't have a 200 pound weight advantage? Do you believe everything you read? There is no way in hell that Zimmerman had anything close to a 100 pound weight advantage. I know some media outlets reported that. That is absurd. He's lucky if he weighed 30 pounds more.

It's irrelevant what Zimmerman weighed in his mug shot from 2005. He was much heavier in that picture. He may have weighed well over 200 pounds in that picture but not any more. He is 5"9 inches. You saw him on the video. He is 5"9. How much do you think he weighs? He couldn't weigh more than 180 pounds. The reports on Trayvon are that he was anywhere between 6"0 and 6"3 and anywhere between 140 pounds and 175 pounds. Let's compromise and say he weighed 155 pounds. Does Zimmerman who is 5"9 look like he weighs 255 pounds to you in the video?

With regard to fear for your life or fear of great bodily harm from a fist fight, people get killed or seriously injured in fist fights all the time. Just off the top of my head, I could give you several stories from just the past year:

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-20077324.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...ther-girl.html

What about the guy at the Dodger game that ended up in a coma from being beaten up? Thousands of people have been killed or gravely injured in fist fights.

I'm going by what the Sanford Police Department and the mortician reported.

Zimmerman had no right to pursue, attack and kill this boy just because he was black.

Do you have any reason to believe that Zimmerman would not have followed Trayvon if Trayvon was Latino? If not, then I don't know why you keep saying that Zimmerman followed him because he was black.

Fair enough. I can appreciate your point of view. But let me ask you one question. This is just a hypothetical question. If you were on the jury and there was clear evidence that Trayvon and Zimmerman had some words such as the things we have read: Trayvon: "Why are you following me?" Zimmerman: What are you doing here?" Then the conversation was over. Zimmerman walks away and is heading back to his car. Trayvon attacks him from behind and knocks him to the ground.

If you believed that is what happened, how would you vote if you were on the jury? I'm only giving a hypothetical. I'm not saying that this was how the incident went down. I'm just asking you hypothetically if you knew for sure that this was what happened, how would you vote if you were on the jury?

Here is the police report right here. Trayvon is listed as 6"0 tall and 160 pounds. Zimmerman is listed as 5"9 but it does not tell his weight. I think we can make a pretty good educated guess as to what his weight is from the video. I would guess 175 pounds. What is the most he could possibly weigh? You have seen the video. Could he weigh 210 pounds? I would say there is no way, but even if he does, that would only make him 50 pounds heavier. It just shows you how many completely erroneous reports there are out there. Some in the media have claimed he weighed 100 pounds more.

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news...e-reports.html

..

When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand
 

What special relationship did Zimmerman (father and son) have with the Sanford PD? I believe this is going to come out if a thorough investigation is actually done.

Consider:

1. Z is on record as having called 911 dozens of times. I'd think the local cops would have him down on their PIA list, unless he's got special access.

2. The dispatcher SPECIFICALLY STATED "WE DON'T WANT YOU TO DO THAT" (follow TM). I'd think they would be a little pissed at him in the station house, but...

3. His "perp walk" arriving at the police station is a joke. Except for the handcuffs, it almost looks like he's taking a joyride. Check the body language real carefully; it almost looks to me like the cops are somewhat apologetic, with an attitude like "sorry for the inconvenience, bud, this shouldn't take long." He's so badly hurt and shook up that he has no trouble getting out of the back seat unassisted, despite the cuffs.

Sorry, not buying his bs.


Ocala Mike

Just curious, but why is Zimmerman even being called white? He is as white as I am black.

I'm not going to tear down that essay piece by piece, which would be easy to do. I will just respond to one thing in there. I would simply ask the author the same question that I asked you. My question to the author would be this: Would Zimmerman have followed Trayvon had Trayvon been Latino? If the answer is no, then my question would be, "How do you know that?"

If your answer is either that you think Zimmerman would have followed Trayvon even if Trayvon had been Latino, or if you you don't know whether Zimmerman would have followed a Latino Trayvon, then how can you say Zimmerman was racist?

Because the only thing Zimmerman knew about Trayvon, when he telephoned the police about the kid being suspicious, was that he was male, and black. He wasn't doing anything. Pick the "suspicious" thing out of those facts. Must have been because a male was walking down the street! Gasp!

The truth of the matter is we don't know whether Zimmerman would have called the police if Trayvon was Latino. If you think there is a chance that he would have, then you can't say that he only called because Trayvon was black.

I do agree with you that Trayvon being a male was probably a factor in Zimmerman calling the police. I doubt he would have been following the person or calling the police if it had been a 65 year old woman (of any race). Young and male is obviously going to be perceived by most people to be a bigger threat than old and female. I guess that makes people sexist and ageist. Is there a such word as ageist?

Have you ever seen a person who you thought was up to no good? I would find it extremely hard to believe that in your whole life, you never saw a person that you were either afraid of or thought was up to no good, even though the person wasn't doing anything. I know I have seen people that I thought were up to no good. It had nothing to do with their race. It was simply their body language. They hadn't committed a crime yet but their body language looked like they were waiting to do something. I'm sure I was dead wrong in some of the cases. But in some of the cases I know I was right because a couple of times the police arrested the person a short time later. You could say the person was doing nothing. That is true. I hadn't seen them commit a crime. They were either just standing there or walking down the street but there was something in their body language that made me suspicious. Some of the people were white, some were black, and some were Latino. Race wasn't the issue.

I live in Los Angeles and there are a lot of homeless people here. Some of them are really nice. Most of them are harmless. But some of them are paranoid schizophrenics and they can lash out at you at any time. You need to be somewhat careful and you need to keep your eyes open. You need to watch their body language and rely on your instincts. Even if you have great instincts, you're not going to be right every time. You could get attacked by a person who looks harmless. By the same token, a person who looks menacing may turn out to be no threat.

In a big city there is a lot of crime and you need to keep your eyes open or you are going to end up being a crime victim. The main thing I look at is body language. I will obviously also consider age and gender. I obviously usually don't get too worried if I see a 65 year old woman coming towards me or if I see a 70 year old man walking his dog.

As neighborhood watch captain, I'm sure Zimmerman watched people's body language. I think we all do.

By the way, not a single black person has come forward and said that they had a bad experience with Zimmerman. If he was such a racist, I would think there would be some history of racist behavior on his part. Instead we have seen the opposite. Several black people have come forward and said what a nice guy Zimmerman was and that he showed no signs of being prejudice.

I would vote the same because again the fact that he continued after being told not to shows that he was the agressor. Knowing he had a gun and knowing the stand your ground law in my mind he was trying to provoke an altercation.

That's really the key point because the "stand your ground" law means exactly that - you don't have to flee an aggressor. But if you become the aggressor, the law no longer applies. In fact, if Mr. Martin was armed, he'd be protected by the stand your ground law if Zimmerman was first to take hostile action.

"Stand your ground" is an improvement over gun control that is too restrictive, but does NOT protect an aggressor. Zimmerman will lose his case if he thinks that the law will protect his actions. The 911 call documents that fact.

Because it fits the narrative. The narrative, and not the facts, is what it important.

Umm... so what? This is not a heavyweight bout. There is no expectation of "fair" matchup. The aggressor wanted to cause harm to the victim - whichever way that washes out pending the facts and trial.

Take it to the extremes. If a 300 lb defensive lineman for the NFL was attacked by a 100 lb. soaking wet crazy person, the lineman would still be in his rights to shoot the other guy. He does not have to "accept" physical damage just because he is bigger and stronger. He need not be hurt at all at the other person's whim.

When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand
 

His father is white, and his mother is white, Peruvian by nationality. The broad class known as "Hispanic" is not a racial classification.


Ocala Mike

Oh yes it is - it is treated that way. I remember forms I had to fill out while attending public school where they had an acronym "N.O.I.S.E" for racial classification.

The letters corresponded to (these are NOT my terms, so if they are not in vogue now - this is a time capsule)

N - Negroid
O - Oriental
I - Indian
S - Spanish descent (corresponding to Hispanic or South American)
E - Eurasian

The real answer is it's just more convenient to now refer to Mr. Zimmerman as white. Who's going to riot otherwise?

Deep stuff.

The main difference, naturally, is that the rest of us don't go around killing people because they look suspicious.

We call the police, if we're so inclined, and let them do their job. We don't stalk them, continue to do so against the urging of a 911 dispatcher, follow them between houses, and shoot them dead for reacting to our stalking while carrying lethal candy and iced tea.

But hey, he looked suspicious, so it probably worked out for the best. Minor details.

When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand
 

We've come a long way, baby. Those designations are, indeed, archaic.
The 2010 US Census instructions clearly state that "Hispanic" is not a racial designation today.

I do agree that the racial aspects of this case are murky and are being exploited by the usual suspects. More concerning is the vigilante behavior and stereotyping, in general.


Ocala Mike

I'm glad things changed. That N.O.I.S.E acronym was ridiculous. They didn't even let you not fill it out. If you left it blank, they filled it out "for" you.

If it wasn't in acronym form, I probably wouldn't have remembered it.

:tro:

Unfortunately for Trayvon, his aggressor carried a Glock 9mm with the safety off and a round in the chamber, and shot him dead.

Why? Would Zimmerman have called if the kid was white? Asian? Irish? That proves nothing.

The point is Zimmerman saw a black kid walking, and called in to the police that the kid was suspicious, "on drugs", "I don't know what his deal is", "he has has hand in his waistband", etc.

All Zimmerman knew about the kid was that he was black and male. Period. There was no suspicious activity.

Again, walking while black - no longer a crime in the US, with the elimination of sunset laws.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Rupert. We won't change each other's mind about the possible racial aspects of the murderer or the police department until the investigation is complete and we have all the information.

MSNBC reporting (from their website) FBI federal hate crime law investigation begins:

That might very well be how the case is decided once all the evidence is in. And he should be sentenced accordingly if he is guilty.

That's what I tried to explain to her 10 pages ago - good luck