Which makes my point for me, thanks.

Yeeeahhh....okay then.

That stupid article you posted says that it is. Regardless...

..uh-oh...

scuds without Rivera - ie Homegrown talent we maybe win 1 title in the Torre era , his importance cannot be overstated

it's funny you mention Cone , pettite pitched game 5 and beat glavine in that game 1-0 , i guess he was a free agent pick up as well

i'm sure you remember jimmy key , he was a free agent as well who beat greg maddux who turned down yankee $$$ and took turner $$$ after leaving chicago - 1 pig beating another in game 6

do you think the braves win every year w/o maddux during the run in the 90's and 00's?

as for Righetti , he didn't get any rings at all , he was a rookie the same year as Fernando

Pettite , Jeter , Posoda , Rivera , Williams = all homegrown talent

that was the main core of the team and w/o Rivera , i honestly don't know how many we win

lets not forget the players acquired in trades:

Paul O'neill for Roberto Kelly (now that was a trade!)

Jeff Neilsen and Tino for kids (russ springer and sterling hitchcock?)

yes

see scuds likes to hone in on free agents and how championships were bought

but why doesn't he bring up the 80's or between 01-08

giambi , mussina , kevin brown , RJ - all were hired guns and went ringless , im sure i'm leaving others out

in the 80's you had winfield , henderson, whitson, kemp , smalley , jack clark etc etc etc

spending $$$$ doesn't guarantee anything

So what you are saying is that because they spent the money poorly (usually at the behest of George) that it isn't an advantage to have a enormous financial advantage? Or that the only reason that the homegrown talent was allowed to develop was because George was suspended? Or that they were able to keep that homegrown talent because there was no restriction to how much they could continue to pay them and no other big fish to snatch them away? Or that outside of Cano, Hughes and Gardner that there are virtually no other "homegrown" impact players on the current roster? That they will probably be signing Carl Crawford and Cliff Lee in the off season to $300 million dollars worth of deals?

The yankees are actually burdened by all the money they spend in Gales mind.

spending $$$$ doesn't guarantee anything chuck , players succeed and players fail

look at the mets , since 1977 , they have spent more than 95% of the other clubs and have 1 ring to show for it , the twins in that same time peroid have 2

what should have george and now hal done with the $$$$ , you have the most recognizable brand in sports , should they have just hoarded the $$$ over the years and not re-invested it in the brand , you and i both know if they didn't do that the brand wouldn't be as valuable today

companies take write offs all the time on failed projects , the yankees are no different

the landscape is the landscape chuck you can't fault the strong for wanting to get stronger

Long live The Boss



Have Born To Run in my Top 5 greatest rock-and-roll songs ever recorded, btw...

Again, having an huge financial advantage is not a detriment. The Yankees are not like "other businesses". They are part of a special club that has been granted anti-trust exemptions by the US Congress. What they do in reinvesting into the team is not the issue. The issue is the system and how they are allowed to exploit it. The fact that George's own ineptness kept them from winning those 20 years doesnt "prove" money isnt everything.

This sentence isn't logically sound. If the Yankees, who had all the money, couldn't overcome George's "ineptness", wouldn't that indeed prove that money is isn't "everything"...at least as it pertains to this discussion?

If money is everything, as it seems that you are contending, wouldn't they have won despite george's poor decisions?

LOL

Semantics and nit picking. You know exactly what I mean. You can't argue that they don't have a huge advantage because George was an idiot and fired his management staff on a regular basis. Given competent management during that period they certainly would have had a much greater chance to succeed than any other team. George's mismanagement doesnt discount that.

Maddux turn down 6 extra million to stay in the NL rather than joining the Yanks. By the way the Braves had already went to the WS twice before signing Maddux.

I actually agree if your point is that in many ways George hurt the yankees more than he helped. If your contention is that it is simply about outspending everyone else, that simply isn't true.

The yankees have to have a plan just like everyone else. They have a huge advantage with the monopoly money but they still have to put the hotels in the right places.

On another note, I can listen when a Royals fan or even a Rays fan wants to bitch about the Yanks spending money. But when I hear it from a Red Sox or Mets fan...

Actually there is a lot of truth to it.

The yankees plan is unlike anyone elses in team sports. They dont have to develop players to the degree as everyone else and dont have to spend nearly as much time on player development since the rest of the league does it for them. They get the finished product at a premium price but because of the money they have it doesnt matter. It also doesnt matter much when they make a mistake because they can just eat the contract and move on.

While Boston and the mets have more revenues than most everyone else they are still dwarfed by the Yankees. The Red Sox have been competitive because they have not only spent on FA's (though not to the degree of the yankees) but have a superior player development program. Of course having the extra cash to pay draftees over slot and the ability to re-sign its developed players matters too. The Mets havent suceeded because they have done a pretty weak job in developing players.

You can't have it both ways. If you want to say that George screwed them up for 20 years, then you can't say that its all about the money.

This is not nitpicking or semantics. Its a logical fallacy.

Surely you understand that George is an outlier to this hypothesis? Are you trying to discount the insanity that swirled round the team during that period? As soon as George was out of the picture the team became a mini- dynasty. As soon as his fingerprints got back on the team they faded and again were resurrected when his health started to fail. He alone was the divisive factor that countered the huge financial advantage and when he is out of the picture the advantage becomes evident.

Okay. Lets look at the Roster that won that first world series in a century for the Red Sox:

c- VARITEK ACQUIRED IN TRADE
1B- MILLAR FREE AGENT
2B- BELLHORN CONDITIONAL TRADE
SS- REESE FREE AGENT
3B- MUELLER FREE AGENT
OF- MANNY RAMIREZ FREE AGENT
OF- JOHNNY DAMON FREE AGENT
OF- KAPLER FREE AGENT
DH- ORTIZ FREE AGENT

That's right, not a single home grown player in the entire every day lineup. The only one that comes close is Trot Nixon and he sucked and he missed most of the season.

How about the Pitching Staff? Lets take a look:

P- Martinez Trade (basically free agent)
P- Schilling Trade (basically free agent)
P- Arroyo Free Agent
P- Lowe Trade (legit trade)
p- Wakefield Free Agent


And the Yanks buy championships? That team didn't have one homegrown regular. Go ahead Chuck...spin it.

Regardless, money alone isn't going to do it. It makes it a ton easier, but money alone isn't going to do it.

Ask Peter Angelos. You can spend your team right in the tank.

Surely the yankees get some credit for selecting the right free agents lately. No?

Look at the 07 WS team
C- varitek=acquired in a minor league trade- has never played a single game in the majors for any team other than the Red Sox
1b- Youlkilis- drafted by Boston
2b- Pedroia- drafted by Red Sox
3b- Lowell- acquired in trade for homegrown Hanley Ramirez
Dh- Ortiz-signed off the junk pile after being released by MN-made 1.2 mill that year
ss- Lugo- FA sign 8 mill
of-Coco Crisp-acquired via trade for nobodies made-3 mill that year
of-manny -big money Fa
of-JD drew-market value fa
Sp-Beckett-acquired via trade for Hanley Ramirez
Sp-Wakefield-signed as fa after being released by Pirates -salary when signed 175k
sp-Dice K-Intl FA
sp Shilling-Big Money FA
sp-tavarez-cheap FA -3 mill a year
sp-lester-drafted
Cl- paplebon-drafted

Would Dice K be considered a "big money free agent"? LOL

If you want to give them credit for throwing money at Sabathia and Texieria and Arod.

but this is a team that drastically overpaid for Burnett and can just absorb it. They are paying Kei Igawa 4 million this year to not play. They ate 1 million to test drive randy winn for a few weeks.

Arod makes 27 million this year
Sabathia makes 23 million this year
Jeter makes 19 million this year
Teixeria makes 20 million this year

those 4 make 17 million more than the rays entire roster

Burnett 16.5
Mariano 15
posada 13 million
Andy P 11.75
Vasquez 11 million
cano 9 million
Swisher 6.75
granderson 5.5
johnson 5.75

Sure

And he will be cheap compared to Yu Darvish

And in what "market" is J D Drew worth 14 million?

How about the 9 million owed to Julio Lugo this year?

that was not out of line at that time

They paid to get rid of him. I didnt say they were perfect.

They have 16800000 this year and the yankees have 21300000.

When you factor in that the yankees have to pay four aging hall of famers/borderline hall of famers 63,000,000 combined, the payroll isn't really that different.

The Yankees were great for a long time and rewarded their homegrown dynasty guys with big contracts. Seeing as how the Red Sox neither grew their own players nor won for an extended period of time, they aren't burdened with these types of deals. Instead, they can cheap out on guys when they get older because they don't owe them anything.

They got Arod in a trade for homegrown players just like how Boston got Beckett and Lowell. Right?

Glad you got into banking. It what world are 168 million and 213 million the same? Boston had the 6th higest payroll in 2009 btw.

And Jeter and Riveria are borderline hall of famers? No one held a gun to their head to sign these guys. That is the difference. Virtually every other team would have to make a choice to keep paying these guys or get new blood. The yankees can do both.

The red sox only have 100 mill committed in salary next year.

Forbes estimated the Reds as being worth 330 million in April. Or about what Jeter and Lee will sign for this off season.

Yeah the red sox never lock up their players. Thats why Beckett got an extention and Youklilis and Pedroia are signed for the future and they skipped arb with Lester and signed him long term.

No they got Soriano the same way boston got Dice K. We all know the yankees out bid Boston for Arod.

Ramirez was a minor leaguer when they traded him.

you werent serious were you?

Have you been drinking?

Red sox wins in the 2000's
95
95
96 Won WS
86
95
98 Won WS
95
93
82
85

Pedroia
Youkilis
Papplebon
Ellsbury
Lester
Buckholz
Bard
all drafted by the current management of Boston

Thats not what I said. Signing Lester long term now is a good business move but how does that have anything to do with the yankee obligations that I am referring to? How is Beckett's signing or Pedroia or Youkilis similar in any way to what the yanks gave Rivera, Posada, Pettite and Jeter? Yeah, I love the way the Sox did their players that got them a world series after 250 years. Then again, it was one title with that group so they really didn't owe them much. You do have to love the way Ramon was kicked to the curb. And Manny. And Damon. And Millar.

I didnt say 168 million and 213 million are the same. I'm glad you got into Horse training instead of teaching kids to reach. This is 2010 right? The Red Sox are second behind the Yanks with 168 million.

How many of those guys played in 2004? Heck, how many of those guys were integral to 2007?

LOL...try again.

Are you on crack?

I read this again. You want to compare that group to Rivera, Jeter, Posada and Pettite? You want to compare what the Red Sox have done in the last couple of seasons to what the Yanks have accomplished since 1994?

This isn't approaching Delonte West is a great player status yet but its getting there.

Wrong again. Soriano was given a 5 year 3 million dollar contract and the yankees didnt have to pay the japanese club any money to negotiate. Dice K was signed to 52 million plus the Sox paid his japanese club 51 million. A litte different I would say.

The Yankees outbid the Sox not in money but in players. The Sox wanted texas to take back Manny's contract (so loyal!) but the Yanks were offereing Soriano. The money difference was made up partially in texas agreeing to pay part of the arod contract.

What a joke. Here is what you said. I like how you make out like the yankees are somehow rewarding their "aging" players like they arent worthy of their contracts and they are simply being good guys. Funny I recall Jeter, Riveria, and Petitte all being named to the all star game last week. What would they have to pay to replace those players with All star calibur players?

Are you serious? How is Beckett's signing a 4 year 68 million dollar deal or Youkulis signing a 4 year 41 million dollar deal or Pedroia signing a 6 year 40 million dollar deal any different than Posada signing a 4 year 52 million or Rivera signing a 3 year 45 million dollar deal or pettite signing a 1 year 11 million dollar deal? Jeters contract was signed in 2001. Seriously what is the difference? Because the yankees are older? You seriously think they would have signed them if they still werent producing?

And only someone clueless would say that the Red Sox didnt do the right thing after 2004 since they wound up winning again three years later. Pedro left as a FA, got 50 million from the Mets for 1 good season. Yeah bad move. Millar did play another year in Boston but as a 35 year old player with fading skills he left as a FA and continued to fade. Damon left as a FA a year after they won the WS to who else? The yankees overpaid to get him and the fact that the Yankees "kicked him to the curb" after last season shouldnt be lost on you either. Manny? Perhaps you forgot the stretch when he demanded a trade and decided not to play hard?

Are you a ****in idiot?

The guys listed are homegrown guy from the current Red Sox managemnt which was brought in in 2003 since the current owners bought the teasm in 2002. Only you would try to compare them to players who have played 15 years.

We are talking about the Red sox and your insistence that they aren't developing players, not comparing the Red Sox and yankees going back to 1994.


Youlkilis- 31 yrs old 4 full seasons in MLB. Finished 3rd and 6th in MVP voting last 2 years. Gold Glove player. 2-all star

Pedroia- 27 yrs old 3 full seasons. rookie of the year. MVP. 3 time all star. Gold glove. silver slugger

Papelbon -29 yrs old 4 seasons in MLB- 4 time all star. World series MVP

Lester- 26 yrs old 53-19 with 3.50 era lifetime. all star.

Buckholz - 25 yrs old 10-4 with 2.45 era this year. all star

ellsbury - 25 yrs old hit .301 with 94 runs and 70 sb last year

Bard- 25 yrs old- dominant set up man-43 IP/23 hits 1.87 era. next closer


yeah that group isnt very good.

I dont know if you do this on purpose or if you are mildly illiterate. I am starting to think it is a combination of both.

Boston has one of the best minor league systems in the game. When did I say differently? All I said was that the 2004 title was won by players that they didnt grow. Even in 2007, only Youk and pedroia made real contributions of the every day players and only paplebon out of the staff. What championship team have they grown? What group of players have they brought up like the yankees or braves did? If anything, those two titles were bought.