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-   -   Crist: The great distaffers.. (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36737)

Smooth Operator 06-22-2010 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660471)
Watch yourself, it is blasphemy to compare any horse to Personal Ensign on this board.
Hang in there, bro

If Z can somehow, someway manage to take the BCC again this year, gunna need your help delivering all these servings of crow...

Smooth Operator 06-22-2010 12:51 PM
By the way, why was the Suburban shortened?

Is the JCGC the only major race in the east contested at ten furlongs now???

slotdirt 06-22-2010 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 660544)
I consider classic distance runners inherently superior to sprinters and strict milers, Indian boy.

If this Goldilocks is so great, why didn't they stick her in the BCC (or the BCT) last year?

Not surprisingly, both of those contests have significantly higher purses than the BCM.
I'm just going to go ahead and go out on a limb here, but I'm guessing - just guessing - that she was in the Mile because she's a...miler. Crazy but true.

CSC 06-22-2010 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660532)
Nice try. I read your initial response to me when you first posted it. I said your point about waiting for Zenyatta to retire was "well taken". However, you made your point with respect to comparing her to Personal Ensign in any fashion. In my mind, that meant you didn't want to compare the two anymore. Sorry. I didn't silence you, you silenced yourself.

Now you try to re-attach your retirement cop-out to only part of my post, the "ennui" comment. Ok. I'll bite. I'm not sure how you can get around the monotony of Zenyatta's campaign. It's not like one big race at the end erases the meek spotting the rest of the year.

To be fair, I based my comment on the belief that the Clement Hirsch will be next. Maybe we'll see a bumrush at the end instead with the Woodward, Jockey Club Gold Cup, and BC Classic. Or the Hollywood Gold Cup, Pacific Classic, BC Classic.

I won't hold my breath.
I have no idea what you are babbling about now, infact I give up. I gave you 2 follow up responses which I didn't have to, but I thought hey why not try to converse with a fellow poster. I now realize it was a waste of my time. Instead of reiterating them again, do me a favor, if someone has an opinion not similar to yours, cut the crap and accept it. Conversations with you tend to branch out in all accusatory directions. So f*ck them and you.

CSC 06-22-2010 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 660550)
Hang in there, bro

If Z can somehow, someway manage to take the BCC again this year, gunna need your help delivering all these servings of crow...
I'll have my shovel ready. :D

KirisClown 06-22-2010 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 660544)
If this Goldilocks is so great, why didn't they stick her in the BCC (or the BCT) last year?

The connections have no imagination, they refuse to challenge her..

10 pnt move up 06-22-2010 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown (Post 660560)
The connections have no imagination, they refuse to challenge her..
so far this year has been a very uninspiring campaign.

slotdirt 06-22-2010 12:57 PM
Why am I completely unsurprised that someone so adept at digging himself into a hole is already prepared with a shovel? Presumably to serve heaps of crow?

CSC 06-22-2010 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown (Post 660560)
The connections have no imagination, they refuse to challenge her..
If she goes in the BC Classic, would we not all agree here this is somewhat a challenge?

KirisClown 06-22-2010 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660566)
If she goes in the BC Classic, would we not all agree here this is somewhat a challenge?
I wasn't serious.. She routinely faces males and travels all over, I think she's been challenged plenty.

CSC 06-22-2010 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown (Post 660568)
I wasn't serious.. She routinely faces males and travels all over, I think she's been challenged plenty.
That is the question all fans want answered, even Zenyatta's fans would say this. I wish she ran in the Foster but didn't so we are left with a fall campaign that may end at Belmont/CD. If so, it will answer some final questions, right?

slotdirt 06-22-2010 01:11 PM
I still don't get it. Given that the undefeated record and HOY are the obvious goals for Zenyatta, why would she run on dirt again? Nobody has quite explained that to me aside from saying that John Sherrifs says it so it must be true.

KirisClown 06-22-2010 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660569)
That is the question all fans want answered, even Zenyatta's fans would say this. I wish she ran in the Foster but didn't so we are left with a fall campaign that may end at Belmont/CD. If so, it will answer some final questions, right?
I hope so, a Belmont/CD ending would be great. I have nothing against Zenyatta at all, I'm a fan, I enjoy seeing her run..

I just thought the poster bashing Goldikova was way out of line..

The Indomitable DrugS 06-22-2010 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 660427)
i said banshree breeze was a better horse. she was clearly the more consistent horse and accomlished a hell of a lot more on track than keeper hill. however, when they met on the racetrack, for whatever cicumstances there wasnt a lot separating them. and at keeper hill's best, she could beat banshhe breeze and did, twice. that is what i am saying, which leads me to think banshee breeze would have little to no shot vs zenyatta or rachel alexandra.
Banshee Breeze had two near-miss 2nds in the BC Distaff .. and a near-miss 2nd in the KY Oaks where, whatever you want to say about the ride she got, she just gave one away ... I certainly think if she closed the deal in those 3 races she'd be on everyones list of great females.

I've watched and analyzed Zenyatta's two Apple Blossom wins as carefully as I can ... and for the life of me I can't find ANYTHING about those two races to suggest a horse like Banshee Breeze would have little to no shot against her on dirt. Based on those two races - I'm of the oppposite opinion if anything.

Rachel Alexandra was obviously a better 3yo than BB - but I don't see anything about her 4yo form to suggest Banshee Breeze had no chance.

rgustafson 06-22-2010 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 660515)
I'm still reeling from the unfair smackdown to the mighty Swan.
Hey Andy, comment not meant to be a putdown on King's Swan. He was a neat horse and they don't make them like that anymore. 107 lifetime starts and he was first or second in fifty of those, winning Graded Stakes from six furlongs to 1 1/8 miles.:)

blackthroatedwind 06-22-2010 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgustafson (Post 660583)
Hey Andy, comment not meant to be a putdown on King's Swan. He was a neat horse and they don't make them like that anymore. 107 lifetime starts and he was first or second in fifty of those, winning Graded Stakes from six furlongs to 1 1/8 miles.:)
I know....I was just joking around.

rgustafson 06-22-2010 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660511)
Gulch was defeated by Java Gold, Polish Navy, Lost Code, Cryptoclearance, Cutlass Reality, Alysheba, Bet Twice, and Personal Ensign. If I have my facts right, those are the only horses to beat him at 9f (at least in the 7 9f races I came up with).

I think it's pretty lofty company.
Agreed, as I said top company and I meant it. Just didn't list them.

ateamstupid 06-22-2010 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 660550)
Hang in there, bro

If Z can somehow, someway manage to take the BCC again this year, gunna need your help delivering all these servings of crow...
Crow for what, exactly? Show me all the people who are saying "Zenyatta sucks and can't win the BCC."

CSC 06-22-2010 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 660575)
I've watched and analyzed Zenyatta's two Apple Blossom wins as carefully as I can ... and for the life of me I can't find ANYTHING about those two races to suggest a horse like Banshee Breeze would have little to no shot against her on dirt. Based on those two races - I'm of the oppposite opinion if anything.
IMO Zenyatta is not a horse you can measure with speed figs or final times as in other horses, who knows maybe all that are in her corner are totally wrong about her, we've been hoodwinked by the campaign and Sheriff's great placement of 17 times in her career. If this BC is to be contested by Quality Road and Rachel Alexandra on dirt she will be forced to run fast from a beyer perspective to win, if she does this will answer some of the questions people have for her and if she does it may once and for all put an end to this discussion. If she succeeds what knock is there left?

slotdirt 06-22-2010 01:48 PM
I think we can all agree that if she runs in the Breeders Cup, there are some serious dirt horses in there, and wins, that she'll have to be included in the conversation as one of the greater racemares of recent times.

Smooth Operator 06-22-2010 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slotdirt (Post 660555)
I'm just going to go ahead and go out on a limb here, but I'm guessing - just guessing - that she was in the Mile because she's a...miler. Crazy but true.
Exactly, dirtslot

Not "bashing" Goldilocks … just happen to think that top classic distance runners (like Z) are superior to strict milers.

ateamstupid 06-22-2010 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 660606)
Exactly, dirtslot

Not "bashing" Goldilocks … just happen to think that top classic distance runners (like Z) are superior to strict milers.
I generally agree, and I would still take Goldikova over Zenyatta every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Her accomplishments dwarf Zenyatta's that heavily.

slotdirt 06-22-2010 02:05 PM
Why, because they're running a mile and not some artificially arbitrary distance that measures superiority?

hoovesupsideyourhead 06-22-2010 02:05 PM
IMO Zenyatta is not a horse you can measure with speed figs or final times as in other horses, who knows maybe all that are in her corner are totally wrong about her, we've been hoodwinked by the campaign and Sheriff's great placement of 17 times in her career

thats how the greats are measured as you say why is zen not measured the same way..

your basic problem that i can see is that most all people like the horse..'i also think she is fantasic and a joy to see race' just
not to the extent that she is in the same time zone with the 'great' horses
of the past..the ones that get measured by who they ran vs and where and with speed figs and final times..get past all that and zen is no 1

Cannon Shell 06-22-2010 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660437)
I thought I read somewhere he was slowly converted from pitcher to outfield and may have played both at one time, regardless this is an interesting point, was Roger Clemons a better pitcher Pre-HGH or Post-HGH?
Assuming that he didnt start taking hgh before he was a Yankee, no doubt his best years were pre HGH.

Cannon Shell 06-22-2010 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660441)
He was, but he was even more awesome after he bulked up. Plus I doubt he could pitch as long as he did without the help...
The longevity of his career seems to be the smoking gun. But he was a far better pitcher in earlier in his career when he was throwing 250+ dominant innings. The period of 1986-1992 was one of the greatest stretches any pitchers has ever had. His Vaunted Yankee years produced era's of 4.60, 3.70, 3.51, 4.35, and 3.91. Of course this was during a period of high offensive production but pales in comparison to his early Red Sox days. His 3 years in Houston were actually much better albeit against the weaker league.

Cannon Shell 06-22-2010 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660454)
I agree, cheaters playing cheaters. That is why I say the game has evolved, shortstops rarely ever hit for power prior to Robin Yount doing it when he went on the weight thing. Ruth, Maris, Aaron were great when they played in their era but had they played without the "help" in this steriods era, I have a hard time buying that they would have been equally as good in today's game.
So Aaron, Ruth, maris (doesnt really belong in this conversation) wouldnt have taken steroids if they played during this era? What about the fact that the pitchers they faced were far greater playing in a 16 team major league with 4 man rotations as opposed to now when basically every number 4 and 5 starter wouldnt even be good enough to play back then? The great thing about baseball is how little it has really changed over the years. Look at a basketball game or football game from the 60's and watch as baseball game from the same era. The baseball game is pretty close to what we see today on the field while the other sports are drastically different.

Cannon Shell 06-22-2010 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 660466)
Wow … all these posts and not one mention of the most remarkable thing on Crist's list

Not only was she a champion tennis player … but Chris Evert was fast enough to earn over $600k racing against thoroughbreds.

Amazing stuff :D
If she were racing now her legion of fans would be proclaiming her better than Secretariat because she beat Miss Muskett by 50 lengths and Secretariat "only" won the Belmont by 31.

Cannon Shell 06-22-2010 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomerS (Post 660469)
Actually in 1918 he played quite a bit of outfield in addition to starting games.

Would have been HOF pitcher.
true he appeared 70 times in non pitching games

It was rumored that in 1919 he intentionally pitched poorly on occasion because he wanted to be a full time position player while the Red Sox thought he was more valuable as a pitcher.

Antitrust32 06-22-2010 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomerS (Post 660632)
I used to laugh when people compared Bonds to Ruth.

Ruth was HOF material as a pitcher and was outhomering teams.
and in the "dead ball" era. If Ruth was playing today he'd be as good as he was back then (or better since parks are smaller)

slotdirt 06-22-2010 02:51 PM
The best part about guys like Ruth, Foxx, and in later years, Mantle, is that they went out all night, woke up the next day, and still managed to be some of the best baseball players of their eras.

Nobody beats Bobby Layne in so far as professional carousers go.

Cannon Shell 06-22-2010 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 660503)
Sky Beauty is a good example that not all horses are made for shipping. From what I understand, and granted maybe I got some bad info, she just fell apart when she had to get on a plane or traveled and great distance.

I have no idea if Sky Beauty could have beat Hollywood Wildcat or One Dreamer if the race was in NY but going into the gate anyone around that horse knew she had little chance after the ship.
Jerkens didnt want to run her in either BC. Both years she was tailing off (especially in her 4 year old year) and wasnt doing that well but Mrs. Hoffman and her team of advisors wouldn't hear any of it. Smith said that she didnt handle the CD track and that was why she wasn't closer to the pace as usual. But jockeys pretty much always say that after a bad race so who knows. In the SA race she never ran a step and considering she came into the race off of a 7 week layoff he was telling you something.

She had some physical issues and if you notice that after each campaign she didnt run again for 6 months which is out of character for a Jerkens horse.

Antitrust32 06-22-2010 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 660643)
Jerkens didnt want to run her in either BC. Both years she was tailing off (especially in her 4 year old year) and wasnt doing that well but Mrs. Hoffman and her team of advisors wouldn't hear any of it. Smith said that she didnt handle the CD track and that was why she wasn't closer to the pace as usual. But jockeys pretty much always say that after a bad race so who knows. In the SA race she never ran a step and considering she came into the race off of a 7 week layoff he was telling you something.

She had some physical issues and if you notice that after each campaign she didnt run again for 6 months which is out of character for a Jerkens horse.
but isnt that normal?? :wf

Cannon Shell 06-22-2010 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomerS (Post 660632)
I used to laugh when people compared Bonds to Ruth.

Ruth was HOF material as a pitcher and was outhomering teams.
Babe Ruth is so far the greatest player in his sport that it is laughable. His numbers dwarf his competition.

Cannon Shell 06-22-2010 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32 (Post 660633)
and in the "dead ball" era. If Ruth was playing today he'd be as good as he was back then (or better since parks are smaller)
He didnt really play in the deadball era for the most part. But he pretty much ended it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-ball_era


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