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-   -   HOTY: If Zenyatta wins the Classic... (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32679)

kgar311 11-08-2009 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215
No they're not, that's what Greg Avioli would like you to believe.

Horse racing, unlike the NFL is simply a long season that has a culminating day where you can CHOOSE to run in them. That's why BC Classic winners in the past have earned no end of season honors.

NT

So they believe Vale of York is 2yr old colt champion?:confused:

RockHardTen1985 11-08-2009 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
Are you serious or are you being sarcastic? I hope you are serious. Heatseeker was a really good horse before he got hurt. He was a Grade I winner and made over $1 million.

Fairbanks ran a few big races. He made almost $900,000.


Of course I'm serious... They also have something in common.

Rupert Pupkin 11-08-2009 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985
Of course I'm serious... They also have something in common.

You are correct: Giant's Causeway

NTamm1215 11-08-2009 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985
Of course I'm serious... They also have something in common.

Don't forget about Swift Temper, she's special too, right?

NT

alysheba4 11-08-2009 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgar311
Do you really think that was the same MTB that ran in the preakness? Zenyatta wouldn't have even beat MTB in the preakness she prob would have finished 4th behind Musket Man. MTB was at his peak in that race he's a shell of that horse now. If the classic was run on dirt yesterday no she would not have beaten Macho Again nor would she have beaten him or RA in the Woodward

.....wow :zz: :zz:

2Hot4TV 11-08-2009 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgar311
:wf :wf :wf :wf I cant even believe im commenting on your comment here after you just displayed how little knowledge you have on the subject. Jess didnt even own here during the Derby, it was stated by her owner at the time she is a filly and will race only against filly's. This is why Jess bought her was to make sure this wasnt the case and find out how good she really is. She passed all tests and put in one of if not the greatest years of all time by any horse.

You're really bitter about the whole thing. Next your going to tell us what a great sportsman Jess Jackson is.

pba1817 11-08-2009 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt
I'm sorry, but I can't see awarding a horse who ran a Kip Deville-like schedule and never once left her home state to run with Horse of the Year honors. Summer Bird is still more deserving than she, even after his performance yesterday.

Are you on meth..?

Rupert Pupkin 11-08-2009 11:10 PM

The more I think about it, even though Rachel wasn't that impressive in the Preakness or Woodward, she may not have liked either of those tracks. I know that Borel said she didn't really handle the track at Pimlico. I didn't hear any comments from him regarding whether she liked the track at Saratoga, but I know that alot of horses don't handle that track, so she may not have liked the track there either.

So she really may have had a much bigger excuse than just going too fast early in those races. It may have been a combination of going too fast and not handling those tracks.

She may in fact be a totally different horse at tracks she likes such as Churchill, Belmont, and Monmouth.

She really did look like a different horse in those races.

So the more I think about it, if Zenyatta and Rachel faced other, I think there is a good chance it would come down to which track they ran at and how the race set up. If they ran at Santa Anita or Saratoga, my guess is that Zenyatta probably wins. But if they run at Churchill or Belmont, I think Rachel may win. The pace would obviously be a big factor too.

I was just going over Macho Again's PPs and watching some of his races. He is actually a much better horse than I realized. I had totally forgotten that he won the Stephen Foster. I think the race that Rachel ran in the Woodward was actually quite a bit better than I originally thought.

pba1817 11-08-2009 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
The more I think about it, even though Rachel wasn't that impressive in the Preakness or Woodward, she may not have liked either of those tracks. I know that Borel said she didn't really handle the track at Pimlico. I didn't hear any comments from him regarding whether she liked the track at Saratoga, but I know that alot of horses don't handle that track, so she may not have liked the track there either.

So she really may have had a much bigger excuse than just going too fast early in those races. It may have been a combination of going too fast and not handling those tracks.

She may in fact be a totally different horse at tracks she likes such as Churchill, Belmont, and Monmouth.

She really did look like a different horse in those races.

So the more I think about it, if Zenyatta and Rachel faced other, I think there is a good chance it would come down to which track they ran at and how the race set up. If they ran at Santa Anita or Saratoga, my guess is that Zenyatta probably wins. But if they run at Churchill or Belmont, I think Rachel may win. The pace would obviously be a big factor too.

Actually it comes down to the distance... Rachel was breathing fire in the Preakness(1 3/16) and the Woodward(1 1/4), she was at her bottom for sure in both of those huge efforts.

Zenyatta would run right past RA at anything further than 1 1/8, any thing less, RA is outta sight from Z.

Rupert Pupkin 11-08-2009 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pba1817
Actually it comes down to the distance... Rachel was breathing fire in the Preakness(1 3/16) and the Woodward(1 1/4), she was at her bottom for sure in both of those huge efforts.

Zenyatta would run right past RA at anything further than 1 1/8, any thing less, RA is outta sight from Z.

The Woodward is only 1 1/8 miles, not 1 1/4 miles. I think it would come down to the track just as much the distance. At Churchill in the Ky Oaks, it looked like Rachel could have gone another 1/8 of a mile with no problem.

Rupert Pupkin 11-09-2009 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215
Can you find me the chart that says the OP Handicap was run in 1:50 and 2/5?

Cause Equibase says it was run in 1:48.60.

NT

I'm starting to wonder if the Equibase time is right. If you watch the replay and clock the race, you will get 1:50. I know that there is nothing wrong with my stop-watch because when I clock the Apple Blossom I get 1:42 3/5 which is the correct time.

As I said, there was a problem with the clock on the race. If you watch the replay, you will see that the fractions were all messed up. They showed the opening 1/4 mile going in :19 and the half going in :41. The final time showed as 1:50 but how could you really trust that after the fractions were totally wrong. So nobody was sure what the final time was after the race. They ended up coming up with something a day or two later but I can't remember what it was. All I know is that right now Equibase shows the final time was 1:48 3/5 (I'm trusting you on that). But if you clock the race, you will get 1:50. If you go to racereplays.com, they show the final time as 1:50.34.

If you read any articles about the race, they show the final time as 1:50.34.

Here are a couple of articles:

http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=31799

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horse...42525327_x.htm

herkhorse 11-09-2009 05:57 AM

Zenyatta came screaming down the lane to the roar of the crowd with an excitement that hasn't been felt in this game since- well the Woodward. As far as HOY goes, it's like the Oscars- I could care less.

RockHardTen1985 11-09-2009 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215
Don't forget about Swift Temper, she's special too, right?

NT

Shes actually decent and her powerfull win over Seventh Street really validates Icon Project.

CSC 11-09-2009 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms
However, one consistent theme of many on this board throughout the year has been that somehow Zenyatta is inferior to Rachel because she's much "slower" on the Beyer scale. If many let go of their slavish reliance on the Beyers (which are pretty unreliable on synthetic surfaces), they might discover that Zenyatta is not as "slow" as they thought.

Glad you brought this up and worth repeating.

kgar311 11-09-2009 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
The more I think about it, even though Rachel wasn't that impressive in the Preakness or Woodward, she may not have liked either of those tracks. I know that Borel said she didn't really handle the track at Pimlico. I didn't hear any comments from him regarding whether she liked the track at Saratoga, but I know that alot of horses don't handle that track, so she may not have liked the track there either.

So she really may have had a much bigger excuse than just going too fast early in those races. It may have been a combination of going too fast and not handling those tracks.

She may in fact be a totally different horse at tracks she likes such as Churchill, Belmont, and Monmouth.

She really did look like a different horse in those races.

So the more I think about it, if Zenyatta and Rachel faced other, I think there is a good chance it would come down to which track they ran at and how the race set up. If they ran at Santa Anita or Saratoga, my guess is that Zenyatta probably wins. But if they run at Churchill or Belmont, I think Rachel may win. The pace would obviously be a big factor too.

I was just going over Macho Again's PPs and watching some of his races. He is actually a much better horse than I realized. I had totally forgotten that he won the Stephen Foster. I think the race that Rachel ran in the Woodward was actually quite a bit better than I originally thought.

:wf Your mindset is puzzling to me.

The only thing that I was unimpressed about this year is the way Zenyatta won her 4 prior starts. Talk about dissappointing. The feeling before each one of those races was is this the day Zen get beat by a bunch of horses that are no better then 40k claimers in NY.

Antitrust32 11-09-2009 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
The more I think about it, even though Rachel wasn't that impressive in the Preakness or Woodward, she may not have liked either of those tracks. I know that Borel said she didn't really handle the track at Pimlico. I didn't hear any comments from him regarding whether she liked the track at Saratoga, but I know that alot of horses don't handle that track, so she may not have liked the track there either.

So she really may have had a much bigger excuse than just going too fast early in those races. It may have been a combination of going too fast and not handling those tracks.

She may in fact be a totally different horse at tracks she likes such as Churchill, Belmont, and Monmouth.

She really did look like a different horse in those races.

So the more I think about it, if Zenyatta and Rachel faced other, I think there is a good chance it would come down to which track they ran at and how the race set up. If they ran at Santa Anita or Saratoga, my guess is that Zenyatta probably wins. But if they run at Churchill or Belmont, I think Rachel may win. The pace would obviously be a big factor too.

I was just going over Macho Again's PPs and watching some of his races. He is actually a much better horse than I realized. I had totally forgotten that he won the Stephen Foster. I think the race that Rachel ran in the Woodward was actually quite a bit better than I originally thought.


I dont know why she needs an excuse for the Preakness and the Woodward.. I mean not only did she WIN both races but she had by FAR and by Far I mean like 1000 times tougher trip than anyone in those races. The Preakness and the Woodward may have been her best 2 races when you look at the trip.. though I do feel the Haskell was her best race.

Antitrust32 11-09-2009 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pba1817
Actually it comes down to the distance... Rachel was breathing fire in the Preakness(1 3/16) and the Woodward(1 1/4), she was at her bottom for sure in both of those huge efforts.

Zenyatta would run right past RA at anything further than 1 1/8, any thing less, RA is outta sight from Z.


Honestly, if Rachel hadnt have had to sprint 1 3/16 in the Preakness and sprint for 1 1/8th in the Woodward, she may have not been so gassed at the end. It was incredible the way she won those races.. as a 3yo filly non-the-less.

If you are going on complete body of work, no doubt hands down Rachel for the HOY. But Zenyatta was really something on Saturday. Ultra impressive though I thought the Classic basically the BC turf 2nd Division.

I dont feel Zenyatta should be HOY over Rachel.. but I am totally okay with them sharing the honors, if that is possible.

slotdirt 11-09-2009 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pba1817
Are you on meth..?

Yes, because I think a Belmont-Travers-Jockey Club Gold Cup winner is more worthy of a horse of the year honor than a *insert four cruddy SoCal restricted race*-Breeders Cup Classic winner, I am clearly hanging out with Greta Kuntzweiler. Excellent observation.

Danzig 11-09-2009 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt
Yes, because I think a Belmont-Travers-Jockey Club Gold Cup winner is more worthy of a horse of the year honor than a *insert four cruddy SoCal restricted race*-Breeders Cup Classic winner, I am clearly hanging out with Greta Kuntzweiler. Excellent observation.


summer bird has no shot to take hoy. it's definitely between rachel and zenyatta. once the excitement of zenyatta performance wanes a bit, i think you'll see the tilt back towards rachel for what she's done all year.

Revidere 11-09-2009 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaTruth
Leaving California would have been nice. But I suppose racing all of four times until today and beating up on the likes of Lethal Heat, Briecat and Anabaa's Creation was just too taxing.

Not as taxing as beating Bullsbay, D'tara, Flashing and Malibu Prayer

Sightseek 11-09-2009 10:19 AM

Why can't everyone just appreciate both horses?

NTamm1215 11-09-2009 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revidere
Not as taxing as beating Bullsbay, D'tara, Flashing and Malibu Prayer

Winners of the Whitney (G1), Test (G1), and Chilukki (G2)? Doesn't really bolster your argument.

NT

TouchOfGrey 11-09-2009 10:28 AM

Just wanted to thank Sightseek for taking the time to gather all these links and post them.

------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek
RACHEL:
Martha Washington
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBxJvzktxrw

Fair Grounds Oaks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlY6N...eature=related ("with a win of quality and class" - brilliant call!)

Fantasy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQuHFpHMyM8

Kentucky Oaks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRGvb...eature=related

Preakness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRbF1...eature=related

Mother Goose
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TJTn...eature=related

Haskell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS1EG...eature=related

Woodward
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrTMp...eature=related

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ZENYATTA:

Milady
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5ff9G2fv8c

Vanity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTeV9Wb2OWo

Clement Hirsch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTcTi...eature=related

Ladies Secret
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb68fbcFp30

Classic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHtAlmq7tK8


Revidere 11-09-2009 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215
Winners of the Whitney (G1), Test (G1), and Chilukki (G2)? Doesn't really bolster your argument.

NT

Careful there. I love Rachel. I'm just throwing back those 89 beyer numbers that her opponents got in their other wins back at everyone that has dissed Zenyatta for being too slow.

See?


NTamm1215 11-09-2009 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revidere
Careful there. I love Rachel. I'm just throwing back those 89 beyer numbers that her opponents got in their other wins back at everyone that has dissed Zenyatta for being too slow.

See?


I will say this, your pictures are amazing.

NT

kgar311 11-09-2009 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek
Why can't everyone just appreciate both horses?

I'd like to and I was very happy for Zen when she won the Classic but the nonsense that spews out of some peoples mouths kind of taints it for me a little bit. 4 cake walks that were less then impressive and 1 big win on her home turf against non-proven horses on the surface doesn't anoint her a god like some people would make her out to be.

slotdirt 11-09-2009 10:37 AM

I do chuckle at Calvin's Kendall Jackson pants every time.

Revidere 11-09-2009 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgar311
I'd like to and I was very happy for Zen when she won the Classic but the nonsense that spews out of some peoples mouths kind of taints it for me a little bit. 4 cake walks that were less then impressive and 1 big win on her home turf against non-proven horses on the surface doesn't anoint her a god like some people would make her out to be.

By the way, the photo above is Rachel actually winning one of her "cake walks"

kgar311 11-09-2009 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revidere
By the way, the photo above is Rachel actually winning one of her "cake walks"

Oh is that the one were she one by 20? Show the pic of Zen struggling to win by a nose against filly 40k claimers.

Revidere 11-09-2009 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgar311
Oh is that the one were she one by 20? Show the pic of Zen struggling to win by a nose against filly 40k claimers.

You mean the race where she spotted them 10+ lengths with 3/8's to run off a 48.4 half and closed in 22.1 with her last 8th in 11 flat?

And you're right. Malibu Prayer was very impressive winning the Chilukki.

TitanSooner 11-09-2009 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgar311
Oh is that the one were she one by 20? Show the pic of Zen struggling to win by a nose against filly 40k claimers.

come on, you're embarrassing yourself now.. they're both great horses.

Revidere 11-09-2009 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitanSooner
come on, you're embarrassing yourself now.. they're both great horses.

I agree 100%. We are very lucky to have view two of the finest ever to grace the track.

Here's one more of Rachel.....


TitanSooner 11-09-2009 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revidere
I agree 100%. We are very lucky to have view two of the finest ever to grace the track.

Here's one more of Rachel.....


that's awesome.. good stuff.

brianwspencer 11-09-2009 12:44 PM

That last picture is sensational, Rev. She's gorgeous.

kgar311 11-09-2009 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitanSooner
come on, you're embarrassing yourself now.. they're both great horses.

Ex-claimer Furthest Land takes Breeders' Cup Dirt Mile, Mike Maker ...
Nov 7, 2009 ... Furthest Land, who could not win under a $35000 claiming tag at Belmont Park ... owner Ken Ramsey's former claimer Furthest Land proved to be the big dog in ... The win was the first in a Breeders' Cup race for Ramsey, ...
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/hor...ory?id=4632755

Great? She may be the best horse on synthetics but here is just another reason why we cannot take running on rubber and wax seriously. Is Futhest Land a great horse now? Is he the best miler in the country? Is he a champion?
You see what that stuff does to average to below average horses? Its a joke.

parsixfarms 11-09-2009 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgar311
Great? She may be the best horse on synthetics but here is just another reason why we cannot take running on rubber and wax seriously. Is Futhest Land a great horse now? Is he the best miler in the country? Is he a champion?
You see what that stuff does to average to below average horses? Its a joke.

Can't you pretty much say the same thing about the turf? There is a long list of horses that weren't much on dirt but excelled on turf. Should we do away with turf racing also?

Did anyone contend that Furthest Land was anything but a perfect trip winner of a mediocre race over a surface that he apparently likes?

kgar311 11-09-2009 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms
Can't you pretty much say the same thing about the turf? There is a long list of horses that weren't much on dirt but excelled on turf. Should we do away with turf racing also?

Did anyone contend that Furthest Land was anything but a perfect trip winner of a mediocre race over a surface that he apparently likes?

No you cannot say that about the turf, because they dont run the BC DIRT mile on the turf and they dont run the BC Classic on the turf. Turf is Turf they don't try and pass it off as dirt like they do synthetics.
This is a horrible attempt to justify why a horse that couldn't win in 35 claimers in NY just went to the BC run on wax and smoked proven G1 winners on the Dirt.

slotdirt 11-09-2009 01:42 PM

The dirt horses actually fared best - by far - in the "Dirt" Mile than they did in any other of the supposed dirt races on Saturday.

Revidere 11-09-2009 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgar311
No you cannot say that about the turf, because they dont run the BC DIRT mile on the turf and they dont run the BC Classic on the turf. Turf is Turf they don't try and pass it off as dirt like they do synthetics.
This is a horrible attempt to justify why a horse that couldn't win in 35 claimers in NY just went to the BC run on wax and smoked proven G1 winners on the Dirt.

You seem very angry. It's a shame.

BTW, the Breeder's Cup Dirt Mile hasn't been run on dirt or at a mile since its inception.

NTamm1215 11-09-2009 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revidere
You seem very angry. It's a shame.

BTW, the Breeder's Cup Dirt Mile hasn't been run on dirt or at a mile since its inception.

It has actually been run on dirt once...sloppy dirt but dirt nonetheless. It has also been run at a mile for the last two years.

I'm already looking forward to the one-turn mile that it's supposed to be next year at CD.

NT


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