Is there going to be a lot of negative publicity regarding the injury and retirement of Better Talk Now? He is older than Lava Man, at least as high profile and probably higher, especially on a national stage, and has had arguably as prolific a career. Were his owners trying to squeeze the lemon dry with him too? I mean, he hadn't won a race since June of 2007 and was on a 12-race losing streak. If racing is more dangerous for Lava Man because he's nine, wouldn't it be even moreso for 10yo BTN? The worry for people is that Lava Man could POSSIBLY get injured. Well, BTN actually DID get injured. Let's see what kind of negative publicity we get here. I'm guessing there will be none.

Seriously? Better talk Now was never retired due to injuries, announced to be retiring to Old Friends and suddenly 180 degreed back to the track after a years layoff. If BTN's owners decided to do experimental therapy on him and return him to training the same amount of skeptism would greet them as well.
If you fail to see the differences then nothing we post will help you.

Posts like this and others in this thread make me understand why Andy doesnt bother much anymore.

I thought Lava Man's retirement was due to the owners thinking he wasn't competitive at the top anymore.

He wasnt competitive because he was lame. It was announced when he was originally retired that his xrays has shown "marked" changes from earlier in the year. If he wasnt lame what was he doing at Alamo Pintado Equine Medical Center undergoing treatment, supposedly to be retired? If he was lame enough not to be able to simply be retired to a field....well you figure out the rest. Hell you of all people should know you have to read between the lines with these damn racing writers!

It doesn't because I think it's always been that way with him.

Maybe the chances go up even a little more as his age gets older ... but the horse has made improbable stunning form reversals on three different occasions before in his career ... it doesn't take much to be a top horse out there now .. let alone a top Cal bred.

Sure - I would bet against him rising to be a top horse out there ... but I would have done the same the three prior times he did.

It's probably a good thing if the connections are having their motives questioned and people want to call them out .. and assume the worst will probably happen. It will put pressure on them to be realistic if things don't seem to be going rosy.

It wasn't injury.

Of course it was. LOL. If it wasnt then why did he need all these treatments?

That is the problem with school Chuck, you have to send your kids to learn from teachers or professors that make then read and study about subjects. I always thought school was a good idea but I guess we should send the kids to do'ers.. You crack me up. While your point is somewhat valid, and completely logical, you blur it.

Riot,what Chuck really means is he recognizes that you have done a fair amount of exploratory research on the subject of stem cell research. While its hard to designate your posts as hardcore scientific facts certainly the new procedures ultimately maybe more promising then others in the past that have come and gone. While Riot clearly has a rudimentry understanding on the topic, I do as well and I think that given the horses age(which really is very stereotypical to his health value) stem cell theraphy is most likely too much too late to have the desired effect.

No freddy my point is that I prefer the opinions of the people actually working on the horses. You know the ones that write the books.

O'Neil's insistance on running Square Eddie in the Kentucky Derby really put the focus on his priorities . Namely, he'll take ill advised chances with a horse's health to get him to race . Fortunately, Square Eddie was scratched from the derby . Has he raced since ? Now O'Neil is rolling the dice again with Lava Man .

O'Neill doesnt own the horse.

What happened with Square Eddie was just nuts .. I certainly wouldn't have rushed him back and taken a shot with him if I owned him... I'd have been conservative with all signs pointing to a likely very weak 3yo male division out west after the triple crown series.

I think it had to be a case of an owner of questionable competence and a case of Derby fever.

O'Neill has made so many brazenly dumb moves with horses owned by that owner ... that it seems pretty doubtful he's the one calling the shots.

Someone who claimed Lava Man has probably built up Moss like confidence in him by now - and all they need is a vet to tell them what they want to hear - and once that happens .. surely equine Jesus can rise again.

Hard for me to blame an owner for doing something I probably would in his position.

Square Eddie worked the other day...perhaps he can still make the Classic. :rolleyes:

Yes it WAS injury, and an injury can contribute or reflect lack of competitiveness--duh ...

I am re-schooling a young horse that was made less competitive for riding because his professional trainer insisting on pushing him when he had lyme disease and was very body sore ...

Was it any surprise that he refused at times to move at all after that, and lost his work ethic---same deal ...

After Lava Man's last race, he was x-rayed and significant changes were found in his ankles ... Whatever else--like his feet--was wrong was never detailed ...

But since bone chips were removed, you can be assured that some injury/trauma ocurred ..

If KG meant he was not retired because of a breakdown, that is true, but it is also true that degenerative damage is a slower but not less significant variety of breakdown ..

His physical issues seemed to be chronic as well--he did not leave the track because he didn't have the competitve spirit, he left because the sports equipment was wearing out ...

The stem cell therapy has corrected this to a degree, but there is NO way to determine future soundness under stress---NO WAY ..

He was beaten a neck and 3.5 lengths at the Grade 1 level in his final two starts ... on his 2nd best surface. That's not my idea of being uncompetitive when you're talking about a Cal Bred.

I realize he's not going to find dirt out there - and for whatever reason - he can't beat a goat, or crack an 82 Beyer when he ships out of So Cal so ... shipping to where there is dirt won't help.

Besides fooling me a couple of times ... this is a horse that I think litterally might have ruined a trainers life.

I had a laptop when Lonnie Arturburn was around and had his lifetime form pulled up ... because I like to mess with people... and he's a pretty cool guy.

The guy gets fat breeder bonus checks from the horse so I assumed he still was rooting for him. He was having a total meltdown looking at the form and I can assure you he's no fan of that horse.

You would think the horse knifed him in the back or something - and the look on his face and seeing him shaking was scary. Scary enough that I couldn't laugh at some of the nonsense coming out of his mouth if I tried to.

I wanted to ask a question that I haven't heard about, but I'm sure the stem cell treatment wasn't cheap. What kind of bucks are we talking about and couldn't you argue that financially it's just not worth it? Even if he comes back, how well does he have to do to break even? It won't be the same level of insurance money as a stallion--LM's value as a gelding is while racing, not while out to pasture at Old Friends. It has to cost money to insure him though so that's even more money they have to spend to get him back, not just trainer fees (going to charity but they're still paying it).

I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I realize that's what it sounds like when you mention insurance money, but what I mean is I don't think you put a horse through the stem cell treatment for warm fuzzies. They weren't saying he was super miserable in retirement (or whatever limbo he was in), they just said he was happier in training. That raises the question of how they expect to make enough money to make this whole thing worth it when they could invest it elsewhere.

they may not have had to pay a penny, if whoever wants to promote this treatment just wanted a candidate to show it could be done.

I doubt he is insured

wouldn't they find insurance difficult at this point? or cost-prohibitive...

I was going to ask on this because my friend has her show horse insured, but he is off the track because of a leg injury and that leg is omitted from the policy...would a company write for a horse that has undergone aggressive therapy?

I know no more about the horse than you do. Which is nothing but what is in the press. I look at it from my veterinary point of view, and you look at it from your racehorse trainer point of view.

Neither of us know what the horses' vet knows. Yeah, I weigh the horses veterinarian's opinion more heavily than yours.

Except when it's the credentialed veterinarian of vast experience taking care of Lava Man.

No, I doubt that's what Chuck "means", in reference to me :D

Yes, as a practicing veterinarian who has taken the required professional educational course in order to become credentialed to administer stem-cell treatment, and as someone who is familiar with what others are doing with it and the results they are getting within my profession, I suppose I do have a "rudimentary" understanding of the topic. Although in the past year I've only personally performed it on one dog and helped another vet with one horse. A small "n".

The problem in older animals is (basically) that they no longer have the cellular base or physiologic capability for some types of tissue repairs. Stem cells provide that.

Each stem cell injection costs from about $1400 to $1800, depending upon area of the country and who (what lab) prepares the cells for use. I think the articles said Lava Man got three injections over several months.

How do you know what I know about the horse?

I honestly have no experience dealing with non-credentialed vets. The credentialed ones that I do know have no ability to determine exactly what injuries may befall a particular horse. Regardless of their experience.

But you apparently do, judging by the posts you make here regarding the fate of Lava Man.

Where exactly do I give specifics about any potential injury to the horse? You were the one who said that a chip fracture or OCD (?) wouldnt be fatal, as those were the most likely possible injuries.

I never said that the horse would breakdown or even get injured. My point is that the circumstances surrounding his retirement and subsequent return to the races are unusual at best. That IF he were to breakdown or be involved with an ugly injury it would be a huge negative for the sport in general and particularly so because of his announced retirement and return at an advanced age. Because of his advanced age this comeback faces even greater odds because despite the stem cell work on his ankles the rest of his legs and body are still 9 years old, and despite whatever drivel KG comes up with a nine year old horse is still far more likely to have a catastrophic injury than a young horse.

But all that seemingly escaped you. As ususal.

Oh, no. Your opinions about Lava Man are not escapable in the least.

What do you disagree with anyway?

I hope heads roll over them letting 9yo Mi Sueno run in those 2yo races in California.

Even if the High Tech procedure heels the bow, the scar tissue will inhibit full motion of the tenden. Most horses who come back after mending a bow never make it to the races. The training to get a horse back from a long layoff will take it's toll, and most likey bring back the orginal injury. Owners/trainer only wants to run in G1's. I don't think they will need to worry about this, and be forced to really do what's best for the horse.

I hope he's safe in whichever race he runs....but in the handicapping sense Lava Man being entered in any race gives bettors a good opportunity to play against him.

are you talking about lava man? because i don't recall a bowed tendon with this horse...

My bad, better stop reading to much:(

i'll be laughing when hes in the winners circle. i doubt they brought him back to lose. one of the reasons hes back is probably because they feel theres not much to beat, which there is not. i bet the mighty rail trip and richards kid is scaring the bejesus out of them. this trainer is pretty good i would not question him. i'd be more worried about the surface, that horse was a force when california had real dirt.

Long, but educational.

Stem-cell therapy: a highly active field

06/23/09 By Timothy Kirn
Veterinary Information Network

Researchers at the University of California, Davis' (UC Davis) recently opened equine stem-cell center expect to collaborate with human stem-cell researchers.

That is because in the clinic veterinary medicine is far ahead of its human counterpart.

While human stem-cell research has been awash in controversy concerning the use of embryonic stem cells, veterinary medicine has quietly forged ahead, using stem cells from adult tissues instead of embryos, harvested from marrow and fat.

Because the stem cells come from the animal being treated, there is no need for governmental approval of the procedures.

The first equine procedure is thought to have been done in 1995, by Douglas J. Herthel, DVM, of the Alamo Pintado Equine Medical Center in Los Olivos, Calif., just north of Santa Barbara. Now there are two companies that offer to process stem cells for veterinarians nationally: Vet-Stem, Inc., of Poway, Calif., and VetCell Bioscience, Inc., a British company that last year began business in North America.

Recently small-animal veterinarians have gotten into the picture, treating dogs and even some cats, for those with the wherewithal. The procedures cost upwards of $3,000.

Herthel, for one, says there is a great need for the UC Davis Regenerative Medical Laboratory, as the new center is known, despite the fact that so many are already performing procedures.

While stem-cell therapy appears to be beneficial, little is known about how and why it produces healing, says Herthel, who is going to be collaborating with the laboratory.

Do injected stem cells incorporate themselves into injured areas and form new tissue? Or do they release cytokines that promote better healing, as much work suggests? Or, do they do both?

“Even though it is being used extensively clinically, there is always the need for more research,” Herthel says. “You have to be able to show how it is working.”

There is no definitive proof that stem-cell therapy works, though many observers describe seemingly miraculous results. There has never been a blinded, controlled clinical trial.

What exists are anecdotal accounts, some laboratory work and a few case series.

Adult mesenchymal stem cells, as the type used are known, might have application in many conditions, but so far therapy is typically of ligament or tendon injuries, osteoarthritis and fractures. Practitioners say the animals that undergo a stem-cell treatment can show marked improvement in just a few weeks, and the improvement continues for a few months.

Thoroughbreds with suspensory ligament injuries return to racing, and some notable horses have won. Dogs that could not jump up on the bed start to frolic like puppies.

In 2001, Herthel reported his results on 100 horses with suspensory ligament injuries treated with injections of stem cells and compared his results with 66 horses that he had treated conventionally. At six months, 84 of the treated horses had returned to soundness and work. Only 11 of the conventionally treated horses became sound and did not reinjure the ligament within a year ( AAEP Proceedings 2001;47:319-21 ).

Herthel says he has been working with a human orthopedist who has treated a patient with an Achilles tendon injury. That patient described having significant pain relief just two days after the procedure.

Vet-Stem has reported on 66 horses with tendon injury treated. The company said that one year after treatment 77 percent were injury-free and had returned to their previous activity. Historically, only half of horses with similar tendon injuries return to full activity, and 40 percent to 50 percent have a reinjury.

VetCell says its data shows a 50-percent reduction in reinjury in race horses followed for three years, and among 82 horses treated and followed for more than one year, 78 percent had returned to full training.

However, as some researchers point out, these are uncontrolled, company-funded case series, and the initial claims, while provocative, should be substantiated in well-designed controlled clinical trials.

Colorado State University (CSU) researchers, David Frisbie, DVM, and John Kisiday, PhD, have reported publicly on 15 horses they have treated. Most were reining horses. Their injuries included subchondral bone cysts, cartilage damage, and torn menisci. They said 10 of the 15 became sound, and returned to their previous activity level in their given discipline, in an average of 78 days.

They have launched a commercial venture based on their early results.

Private practice veterinarians who post on the VIN Message Boards report mixed results with stem-cell therapy. But nobody dismisses it as useless. And some describe dramatic improvements in treated animals.

One said that she treated both stifles in a 60-pound Husky mix, that had undergone a previous cruciate repair. “I think we are 10 months post treatment now,” the veterinarian wrote. “It is pretty impressive really. The owner has stopped all meds, the dog is doing well.”

Patrice Mich, DVM, a post doctoral fellow in integrative pain management at CSU, has been doing procedures using Vet-Stem since the fall. “My cases have done well and I will continue to recommend stem cells in carefully selected, properly diagnosed cases,” she says.

The expansion of stem-cell therapy from horses to dogs has occurred fairly rapidly, and it was unexpected, says Julie Ryan Johnson, DVM, the director of sales and marketing for Vet-Stem.

She says the company never anticipated much demand in the canine market due to the cost, and so started out focusing on the equine market. But then small-animal veterinarians began coming to them, asking to be trained in the procedure and to have their material processed. Most had been pushed by dog owners, she says.

“A lot of this has been driven by the client,” she says.

Ryan Johnson says the company began offering services to small-animal veterinarians last year, and that business has grown fast. Within three months, the number of small-animal veterinarians using the service equaled the number of equine veterinarians (though, of course, there are a lot more small-animal veterinarians, she adds). Currently, about 60 percent of the more than 1,500 veterinarians trained in the procedure by the company treat small animals, she says.

UC Davis researchers will be using stem-cells harvested from bone marrow, retrieved from the sternum. Vet-Stem holds a U.S. patent on stem-cells harvested from fat. That will put the laboratory’s research in the center of a current debate, says Sean Owens, DVM, an assistant professor of clinical pathology and the new director of the Regenerative Medicine Laboratory.

Some say marrow is a better source of stem-cells because they can be cultured and the population grown into a larger number of cells per treatment infection. It might be that there is a critical number of cells that need to be injected for optimum results, perhaps 10 million or more per milliliter injection.

Others have suggested that fat is the better source. It naturally has a greater number of stem cells per sample of tissue. Culturing the cells might be detrimental, since it is possible that when the cells are grown there is selection among the stem cells that occurs, resulting in a population that does not contain every type of mesenchymal stem cell there is when the culturing was started. It is not known if this occurs, or whether it is important, but it is a possibility.

And, since it is not known exactly how stem cells spur repair, it is not know whether fat- or marrow-derived cells have all of the same advantages.

Frisbie’s CSU group, which is working to compare the two, recently reported on a comparison of their ability to prompt chondrogenesis. Their study was done in vivo, but it suggested that the stem cells derived from bone-marrow produced greater activity than did fat-derived cells ( J. Orthop. Res. 2008;26:322-31 ).

There are other possible issues as well. Vet-Stem maintains treatment is better when done soon after injury, which might preclude waiting two or three weeks for culturing. Those who use marrow say the incision used to collect fat cells is more likely to lead to problems than the needle aspiration used to collect marrow. And, many owners of competitive horses do not want their animal to have a scar that advertises the fact that it has had a stem-cell procedure.

“At the end of the day, they are both a great source for stem cells,” says Ryan Johnson.

With its new laboratory, UC Davis becomes one of at least four centers in this country that has a concerted, veterinary stem-cell program. The others include CSU, University of Pennsylvania and Cornell University.

Owens says the impetus for the stem-cell lab came from a retired, Bay Area executive who owns reining horses. The executive, Richard Randall, who was a real estate developer before retiring, gave $425,000 to get the school started in stem-cell therapy in 2008.

The school also entered into an agreement with a local, Northern California-based company named ThermoGenesis to use and help develop its stem-cell processing equipment.

But the laboratory technicians and others who were involved in the work were quickly overwhelmed with demand, Owens said.

So the school decided to expand the effort, and with an additional $2.5-million grant secured from Randall, the laboratory was born. It has 10 staff members and will train at least three graduate students at a time.

The human researcher that Owens expects to work most closely with is Jan Nolta, PhD, of the UC Davis Medical Center in Sacramento. The Medical Center recently initiated a plan to build a $62-million institute to conduct stem-cell research, including clinical trials. In June, a group there reported that they were able to grow functional blood vessels in mice with ischemia using human adult stem cells.

Coincidentally, Nolta used to be a barrel rider.

In fact, human medicine is already following veterinary stem-cell practice. The parent company of VetCell has announced that, based on the work with horses, it is conducting a trial of stem-cell treatment for Achilles tendon rupture. Last fall, noting the experience of veterinary medicine, the National Institutes of Health announced that it is opening a bone-marrow stem-cell transplant program in the National Institute for Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Disease.

Owens says the potential for their research efforts is tremendous. He thinks stem-cell therapy works, but the possibilities have not been exhausted and improvements can be made.

He draws an analogy to fire. Fire can warm a cave. But it can also take a rocket to the moon, he says.

Stem cells “are probably not as effective as we would like them to be right now,” he says. “We are still just trying to learn their language. But five years from now, what we are doing today will look like we were using rocks for hammers.”

I am LIVID over this. What happened to her and can a non-credentialed vet fix her?

For what it's worth, Lava Man worked today


Horse Name Sex Age Time Notes Rank

Lava Man (CA) Gelding 8 50.20 h 16/17

OCD is what Greg Oden has. I only know because I have it as well.