Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We ran 4 BC races on the turf last year in soggy conditions that should have favored the euros yet they won zero.

Originally Posted by jcs11204

3 ? omg hockey i like you and all but 3, wow even 4 ?

rags to riches - no....curlin yes... street sense I never liked him but yes.... hard spun maybe

i could argue tiago no way... lears princess is this a joke? and lady joanee seriously? and grasshopper please stop.... as 3 yr olds.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Since the majority of our important racing has been on dirt and the euros almost never beat us there couldnt you say that they are inferior to us? As a matter of fact we beat them a hell of a lot more on the turf than they beat us on the dirt. I have seen lots of superior euros come here and lose. I have also seen lots of mediocre euros come here and improve, often bleeders due to lasix use. Are they superior also? We ran 4 BC races on the turf last year in soggy conditions that should have favored the euros yet they won zero. Of the last 13 BC turf races they have won 4, hardly dominant. I remember a horse named Var who was just a horse over here, was sent to France and became the top rated sprinter in Europe. Turf horses in this country are still not really desired and are considered 2nd class citizens at least until they show they can be stakes horses. to be fair there are a whole lot more good American turf horses than there are european dirt horses. If dirt racing was eliminated in the US and the breeders and trainers concentrated strictly on turf racing, the euros would soon be second class. And that is actually a plausible situation.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The Filly and Mare Turf winner was imported and made her American debut at Belmont Spring last year.

Our turf horses are lucky to finish 9th with a perfect trip when they go long in Dubai each year.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The Filly and Mare Turf winner was imported and made her American debut at Belmont Spring last year.

Our turf horses are lucky to finish 9th with a perfect trip when they go long in Dubai each year.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They are vastly superior on dirt - that seems as obvious as them being vastly inferior going long on the turf.

Originally Posted by hockey2315

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Originally Posted by hockey2315

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Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

I can't argue with your points here, especially the last sentence.

But I must stick to my guns in saying that their top class on turf are superior to our top class on turf. I know the statistics from the Breeders' Cup, and last year's results were baffling to me.

I think a good example is Powerscourt coming over and making Kitten's Joy look like a crow in the Arlington Million. That was a horse that was third string for Coolmore, and absolutely stroked that race two years in a row.

On certain days, we can beat them on our home turf. But overall, I am strongly convinced that they are much better than our bunch.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We can pick examples out all night. Lure was better than any turf miler I have seen from Europe and Manila is at least as good as any euro I have seen period. But that doesnt mean much. Obviously the euros have top turf horses and different style racing but I disagree with the idea that european horses are superior on the whole than American horses.

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

I never would assert that European horses are superior than American horses on the whole, and I don't believe that at all.

The only statement I stand behind is that their top class grass runners are superior to our top class turfers.

That is all.

Originally Posted by hockey2315

What does the 115 Beyer have to do with it? Beyers are lower on turf (and less relevant) and they don't make beyers for euro races so I have no idea what those horses are running. I also doubt Curlin will be as good on dirt, but I'm not going to rule out the possibility of it happening because it would add some more excitement to a very dull year.

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

I never would assert that European horses are superior than American horses on the whole, and I don't believe that at all.

The only statement I stand behind is that their top class grass runners are superior to our top class turfers.

That is all.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

But the reason that an American horse (like Curlin) will have a hard time winning the ARC isn't because they arent good enough, but because the style of racing and the course not to mention the ground are totally different than anything they have ever encountered, which was the original arguement.

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

That is a point I will consider, especially if Curlin romps in some grass race here and then gets stroked over there due to layout and ground condition.

I appreciate the banter.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

When European horses come run in the BC Turf (mind you we don't always get their best), they often run 110+ Beyers. If you don't think they're running at least the equivalent of that in the Arc.. I don't know what to say.

Originally Posted by jcs11204

hockey... use the drf plus... and go look at the horses i named.... hard spun maybe ?
omg

Originally Posted by jcs11204

and i did say whats on my mind
YOUR NOT VERY FUNNY
TO ME, YOUR NOT FUNNY AT ALL

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Since the majority of our important racing has been on dirt and the euros almost never beat us there couldnt you say that they are inferior to us? As a matter of fact we beat them a hell of a lot more on the turf than they beat us on the dirt. I have seen lots of superior euros come here and lose. I have also seen lots of mediocre euros come here and improve, often bleeders due to lasix use. Are they superior also? We ran 4 BC races on the turf last year in soggy conditions that should have favored the euros yet they won zero. Of the last 13 BC turf races they have won 4, hardly dominant. I remember a horse named Var who was just a horse over here, was sent to France and became the top rated sprinter in Europe. Turf horses in this country are still not really desired and are considered 2nd class citizens at least until they show they can be stakes horses. to be fair there are a whole lot more good American turf horses than there are european dirt horses. If dirt racing was eliminated in the US and the breeders and trainers concentrated strictly on turf racing, the euros would soon be second class. And that is actually a plausible situation.

Originally Posted by jcs11204

3 ? omg hockey i like you and all but 3, wow even 4 ?

rags to riches....curlin... street sense.... hard spun

i could argue tiago... lears princess and lady joanee and grasshopper.... as 3 yr olds.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I was just defending the position someone took that Curlin, as far as his position amongst racehorses all-time is concerned, would achieve a higher reputation if he were to run on grass and be successful at the top level.

From your reply to that post, you seemed to assume that the point of running on grass was to increase his stud value, but that wasn't what was being said by the other poster. I brought up Secretariat as an example of a dirt horse switching to the turf in a sporting move.

One could also mention Buckpasser, who I think was planning for a tilt at the Arc in France at 4 and was run in the Tidal or Bowling Green at Belmont to get a feel for turf. Because of some shoeing complications, he didn't handle it particularly well, and finished 3rd, ending his international travel plans. Unfortunately, it also ended a 15-race win streak, which would have tied him with Citation well before Cigar did with that cheesy manufactured race at Arlington.

Hopefully, Jess Jackson ups the ante of his sportsmanship by moving this horse to grass as opposed to just trying to break the pointless all-time money record or sending Curlin to Japan for the Japan Cup Dirt to face another group of no-hopers as he did in Dubai...

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

She was fairly common over in France... Not terrible, but not clashing heads with the best.