I have to disagree with the no doubt assessment. Winning in the slop at Monmouth (which we knew Street Sense didn't like) was the only time he singled himself out and it hardly made him the no doubt best performer of the 2007 3yos. If Street Sense and Hard Spun were both in training this year I would guarantee that Curlin would not go undefeated.

well we just really disagree on this. from my point of view, Street Sense is clearly the one who had the best of circumstances. His two races that earned him all the big accolades were as drugs pointed out greatly enhanced by trip and pace factors. When he didn't have those gifts handed to him he was much more mortal and no sure thing.

for me Curlin earned all the credit starting late in the year, and campaining in every TC race remarkably well, historically well. then when he came back in the fall he took it up another notch.

the progression was evident in the head to head match ups
Kentucky Derby, Street Sense took advantage of a miraculous rail trip while Curlin had a more troubled trip and experienced the big race for the first time checks in a well beaten third.

Preakness, Curlin already exposes Street Sense by running him down to win. there was absolutely no way he should have been able to do that if Street Sense was the more talented horse. Street Sense had the jump on Curlin and should have been home free.

The Classic, Curlin runs by Street Sense like he was standing still.

Street Sense would never have gotten in the way of a Curlin win this year.
Hard Spun, under the right conditions might have been able to.

The horse often makes their trip which is why I don't understand the criticism of Street Sense cause his big wins were dream trips. There are very few horses that would have taken the rail like Street Sense did. Brother Derek might have actually crapped mid-race had his jockey ever tried to take him through a hole like that.

i thought street senses tampa bay derby, in which he defeated any given saturday and the clock was one of the best races of the year. he wasn't supposed to be 100% for that race, but he never gave up. in the preakness, it was a head bob either way-and curlin won it. then he loses to rags, who then loses the gazelle.
as for the classic, hard spun ran second (again, followed by the monster awesome gem, and then street sense. the derby, street sense, hard spun and then curlin. same group all year, battling each other all year. how that makes one head and shoulders better than the others, i don't know.

i NEVER said street sense was more talented. i think he was equally talented, and showed precocity at two, and then kept his form thru august of last year. now that's something that has been sadly lacking lately in tc runners. hard spun ran hard all year, and curlin as well. but they all took turns beating each other throughout the year. curlin may have had a stronger ending, but you can't use that to negate the beginning of the year.

Why was he not?

And would it be an after the fact conclusion on my part if I said so much before the race?

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/sho...ghlight=post13 (post #13)

I totally agree.

i don't know how you can make the case that street sense wouldn't have been able to give curlin a run for his money at four. street sense won throughout the year last year, but then ran his worst race in the swamp at monmouth. how does that correlate to him not giving curlin a run this year? would all their matchups be in a quagmire?

Because, and it pains me to say, Street Sense was always phony.

lol
always phony? talk about rewriting history.
that has to knock curlins ability down a couple notches, if he was all out to beat a phony by a head bob in the preakness.

He stumbled, was rushed along, bore out some, was left for dead by a perfect trip Street Sense on the far turn - and somehow won anyway.

Street Sense had no excuse for not winning that race.

and an argument could be made that curlin shouldn't have lost the belmont. none of this gets us anywhere really.
i thought there were several good horses, and that curlin ended up the season the strongest.
i also think it's a shame they will only meet up now in our imaginations. but no one will convince me that street sense was a phony, or that curlin was towering head and shoulders over his peers.

Yeah, a bad one.

It was a slow paced 12 furlong race and he was caught inside and didn't have the turn of foot. Big deal.

Shut up Hossy.

No one said Street Sense was finishing dead last anywhere.

Convenient but consistant and proven correct.

posse is doing pretty well. it is a stretch to say that horses given "illegal" drugs wont be sucessful as sires because racetrack performance doesnt necessarily translate to success at stud. Horses like Formal Gold and Skip Away would be Gods on the track nowdays but havent been bigtime sires and i'm pretty sure it isnt because they were drugged.

I respect your opinion but on this matter your assumptions may not be correct. Horses are horses. If a horse has an issue that an illegal drug can deal with they will run better regardless of class. There is a theory that trainers arent taking a big risk because they are using substances for which there are no tests. If there are no tests then there can be no positives. The amount of research done on possible unknown drugs is not much. Dubai, japan, hong kong or here.

He was heads the best that day but not shoulders

I will give you the BC but you have a hard time convincing me that the Preakness proved Curlin was "head and shoulders" better than the other three year olds.

Thats the worst, and most inaccurate thing I've EVER heard you say.







Then I read your Pyro tout thread. :p

Not to mention, trip or no trip, he got SMOKED in the Derby by the top two. SMOKED. Beating the incredible Imawildncrazyguy and Sedgefield (neither who have run a STEP since then) in a photo for 3rd does nothing to prove he was head and shoulders best.

I laughed.


But honestly, look at Street Sense's final four races...

Jim Dandy: A very workmanlike slow figure win with CP West a length and a half back in 2nd. Cowtown Cat was menacing on the turn and finished like 4th by 3.

Travers: He sat right off of the lightly raced and lacking foundation Grasshopper (who was making his stakes debut) - and needed almost the entire length of the stretch to win.

Ky Cup: An unpressured Hard Spun was pulling away from him through the lane

Breeders Cup Classic: Tried to win the race by moving in tandem with Curlin, he simply couldn't stay with him and was fractured trying. Coming off of the bridel late and losing 3rd to suck-up Awesome Gem.

The people who think Street Sense was some kind of monster have to base that laughable opinion solely on his BC Juvenile, Tampa Derby, Kentucky Derby, and Preakness efforts - all of which came with the same fast paced setup and the same dream trip.

I call him a phony only because his mind-boggling repute was built on the basis of four big races that anyone should have been able to identify as dream trips for the ages.

Good point. I hadn't thought of all the things that they have no tests for.

It is what they did.

And I have no plans of getting into the breeding business anytime soon - horses or humans.

Not until Emily dumps the Silent Bob after the Nutra-Sytem diet looking guy and comes back to me.

I don't disagree with your assessment of his final 4 races, none of which were spectacular despite actually winning two of them. He didn't move forward, and the other two did. However, I don't think anyone considered Street Sense a "monster" (despite perhaps the best BCJ performance of all time.) I would describe him more as "excellent" and "deserving", but definitely NOT phony.

Ok well he ran in 4 grade 1 3 year old races and lost 3 of them. If SS or HS had won the BC, there would be no way anyone could say that Curlin was head and shoulders above the other 3 year olds. So basically one big win on a sloppy track is the determining factor. That is hardly dominant

I dont think SS was a monster either but at least he didnt get bitch slapped by a filly.

The funny thing is that filly never would have entered the Belmont if Street Sense had yet didn't let Curlin scare her away.

You are being too much of a results queen....

Curlin was a very lightly raced horse - who happened to have some genuine no doubt about it bad luck when the spotlight was on.

I know you and I disagreed about his race in the Belmont way back when - but it would be very hard for you to knock his other three races - because he had brutal circumstances in each.

This whole 'Let's just focus on the final results of 4 races' way of thinking is also pretty silly.

Secretariat lost the Champagne, Wood Memorial, Whitney, and Woodward stakes. Easy Goer won each of those four races in ultra impressive fashion. That doesn't mean anything does it?

Results matter. I fail to see the 'brutal" circumstances he had in the Belmont and Haskell. He was not a dominant 3 year old, he just wasnt. Secretariat was. Even Point Given was. Curlin wasn't.

Obviously not dominant to the extent the two you mentioned were.

No offense to anyone here. Like I said earlier I thought 2007 was a superb crop of 3 yr olds. Case closed.

I don't see the reason to run anyone of them down to make a point that one was superior to another. I believe Curlin was head and shoulders above the rest that is just my opinion, but reasons were stated in my earlier posts. I also think Street Sense, Hard Spun, Any Given Saturday and Rags to Riches are wonderful horses. If anyone of them were running this year anyone of them would probably be at the head of the class by years end.

All this making Curlin's accomplishments even more amazing, maybe we should just all agree this was a superb class that we were fortunate to see all of them run last year. I know I was.

Had to bump this one back up... While I understand Mr. Haskin's attempt at 'taking a shot,' I guess he could have picked a better one than a horse who finished last!! Sorry, had to take a jab!