We see things way different. But then, you know that.

Seeing things differently is one thing.....are you aware of the two races Turkoman ran at 7F as a 4YO?

Ironic thread as LITF's half brother, by Speightstown, will be going through the ring very shortly. Hip #176.

What did he work?

A horse like Turkoman would be revered as a racing God now.

Have they ever bred the mare to Lost Soldier again?

10.2

Actually, I was wrong, he won his 4YO debut at 6F....in 108 1/5....closing from about 147 lengths out of it. By the way, he won the Widener in 1:58 3/5 three weeks later. For what it's worth, that was a new track record at Hialeah ( he was last with a half mile to go...and went his final half in 46 4/5 ).

He returned off a layoff to finish a close second to Groovy in the 7F Forego, the track was muddy and Groovy opened up 7 top of the stretch.

No doubt. I loved him.

He's Out, unless my video froze through his sale

I have no reason to believe Youngstown will be all that as a sire..

I'm aware of the Forego. I never saw the other race. From the accounts of it that you just gave, it must have been a good race. But then, was it better than Fog going 1:13 2/5 as a 2yo (with a 1:07 1/5 fraction) at Turf Paradise? Was it better than Fog going 1:07 1/5 (with a 54 1/5 fraction) at Golden Gate? He also ran 1:08's at Gulfstream, Aqueduct, and Belmont to prove that he wasn't just a wonder on the asphalt tracks out West. His race at Calder was close to setting a track record and was faster than the older horses went in the Smile and the Princess Rooney, races which were won by graded stakes winning horses.

Cannon is right though. A horse like Turkoman would be looked at like a God today. Same with Precisionist, who was Ghostzapper before Ghostzapper.

Geez King next you are goingto be telling me how awesome Smokey Stover is because beat Northern Cal's finest

I don't get it.

kitten's Joy as a 3yo?

The bottom line is that since none of these horses ever proved themselves over poly or cushion we can't know how good any of them really were.

LITF beat the clock in No Cal races... He was racing against 50k claimers.. I real don't get why anyone would think the colt was ever special... BTW I Love SJ as well

Ok, now I get it. You are absolutely correct. I had to look through some scattered papers on my desk but I found the memo telling me that Calder, Gulfstream, Aqueduct, Saratoga, Belmont, and Churchill had all been relocated to Northern Cal. My mistake.

Freddy,

Smokey wouldnt have gotten LITF out of a jog

I honestly don't know how you discredit what LITF did as a 3 yr old. He isn't an all time great, but that was a tremendous season. He's certainly not the first horse to run a clunker in the BC (especially a sprinter). He pretty much ran the best 3 yr old sprint races you can run and won them all...all over the country.

He was the first horse to run a clunker with cancer wrapped around his spine

Don't remember if Manila was a 3yo in 1986 or 1987. Though grass, he had a great 3 yo year.

1986.....or he belongs on any and every list.

I am not so sure... but that wasnt my point

I read the other day he's nominated for the HoF. Hard to believe he's not already in. He beat a real good field in the BC Turf back when that was the race they all wanted to win.

This is correct.
This is exactly what I did.

And if you only find Hansel strange
then I really must have fkd up...

btw, I see you guys have gotten underway
at school. Hope all gets back to normal soon.

El Gato Malo has trained in SoCal throughout his career. I don't think anyone thinks of him as a horse from the Bay Area.

Until they started messing with the schedules (and Santa Anita revised the Santa Catalina from a restricted to a open, graded race), the El Camino Real Derby used to be one of the most productive races as far as Derby preps go.

I was saying that even though I know he's not a North Cali horse, because he ran that one race up there, when I think of him, my first though is of a Northern Cali horse so I can understand how that stigma can easily be placed on Fog even though he ran the majority of his races away from North Ca.

I know it wasnt your point, but Im pretty sure that he couldnt have gotten that horse out of a jog. He cant get half the horses running now out of a jog, hes a typical California horse who comes East and gets drilled. LITF was different, he went anywhere and dictated the race. He flew in, kicked ass, and flew home.

i never would have expected LITF's name to come up on this thread, given the title.

How do you come to this conclusion about Smokey Stover? He's gone East three times. He did lose in Florida but he did at least beat Fabulous Strike there. He crushed a little race at Monmouth then had the slop thing in the BC. I think the jury is still out as far as how he'd consistently do on fair tracks back east.

Who are these typical California horses you speak of? Obviously, Fog wasn't one of them. What about Pico Central, Taste of Paradise, Black Seventeen, Rags to Riches, Midnight Lute, Indian Blessing, Lion Heart, Roman Ruler, Woke Up Dreamin, Dream of Summer, Azeri, Borrego, Congaree? I think that there are far more instances of California based horses going east and winning than there are of Eastern horses coming west and winning.

Why, because he lost once as a 3yo Jim

King, Smokey Stover cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Lost In The Fog, or any top sprinter running right now. The jury may still be out, but its not out on him being great its out on him being competitive with his peers

I loved Fog. But to be honest with you, I think Smokey Stover has a better style for top level sprinting than Fog did. I think SS is definitely in the conversation with Fabulous Strike, Midnight Lute, and Benny the Bull.

King...Here is a Top Sprinter pole taken long ago. You have always had a West Coast Bias. I do not fault you for this, as I think you are from California, however it goes without saying those horses arent top shelf sprinters less MNL

You
Surf Cat
Smokey Stover
Midnight Lute
Black Seventeen

Sleepers
Bilo
Bro Lo

LITF didnt need any running style, he was simply faster than everything he ran with. He ran them into the ground while dictating the pace. Im a big believer that if a horse can ever be in front, they need to be there dictating a race

I do not deny that I think that, in general, when it comes to sprinters, California horses are a tougher and deeper group than their eastern counterparts. If you were to look at the list of horses that I like or think are the best, you would find there is no bias towards or against horses from any part of the country.

yes, because he was drilled in the BC and in my mind there are questions as to how good a sprinter he actually was. the record looks great, one loss as a three year old, but the only reason he had that record is because he had distance limitations so couldn't stretch out, and for the most part he did not beat anybody. nice horse, but top 25 in last 20 years? not in my book.
he hit a streak of races where he was the controlling speed, thats about it.
what was his big race where he really stamped his quality as a 3yo? remind me who he defeated again.

i wanted to bring him up as well, but as you said, earlier crop.

i wish someone would post that fla sprint of his on youtube, including the gallop out.

that was NUTS.

He was controlling speed in every race he ran because he was an incredible talent.

Kelly's Landing (1.5 million)was a nice horse, Egg Head was going to be a very nice horse, Santana Strings (550k) was a nice horse. He ran against and drilled some very good horses. When he won he didnt outbob horses, he ran them into the ground. He danced every dance as a 3yo, the only race he didnt make was the Malibu because he had cancer. His 2yo season was also incredible, never running a sub 102 figure.

It is impossible to say how good he was, but its safe to say he was a monster and certainly deserves to be on a list of top 3yo.

I'll give my list...I include all horses that were three as of 1987 (so all foaled in or after 1984), I can't really separate one season from careers so my list takes into account all lifetime races:
1) Cigar (obviously not based on 3yo season)
2) Personal Ensign
3) Risen Star
4) Tiznow
5) Dubai Millenium
6) Point Given
7) Skip Away
8) Alysheba
9) Miesque
10) Smarty Jones
11) Lammtarra
12) Holy Bull
13) Elusive Pimpernel
14) Sinndar
15) Giant's Causeway
16) Sunday Silence
17) Silver Charm
18) Barbaro
19) Thunder Gulch
20) Silver Charm
21) Easy Goer
22) Ghostzapper
22) Go for Wand
23) Winning Colors
24) AP Indy
25) Charismatic

but i thought the question was top 25 three year olds?