Originally Posted by Duvalier (Post 955156)

So then...how about the horse Payson Dave just mentioned? Running as a colt today but last time was run under the listing that he was gelded? Where would that fall in all this?

Originally Posted by PatCummings (Post 955154)

The ultimate value of the information should not be in question. Value is always in the eye of the interpreter. But there is an official keeper of the data
...
...
Paulick has the link to the indictments in his story:
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...penn-national/

Originally Posted by Payson Dave (Post 955161)

Agree that value is in the eye of the interpreter...and that everyone has a right to their own opinion...I just don't share the opinion that published final times of workouts are frequently of little value because of malicious inaccuracy...rather imho published final times are of little value because they tell so little about the quality of the work.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 955166)

I completely agree with this.

Using workout times in the paper is, IMO, a futile exercise. Looking at dates of works, frequency, or gaps in timing, makes sense to me, but the actual times used tell perhaps the least ( I'm being generous here ) important story.

Originally Posted by Duvalier (Post 955137)

So what about all the prior misleading workouts being published around other racetracks? The stakes horse supposedly working at Monmouth when he was stabled at Aqueduct and working under a different name? Was that really fraud? How about all the late workouts announced at the track prior to a race, because the horse didn't have a published work in the required say 30-60 days...who is guilty of fraud there? Who allowed the work to be ok'd and the horse to run?

Originally Posted by Duvalier (Post 955139)

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 955183)

and it's this attitude held by many in the sport that has led to federal involvement. racing has a lot of money changing hands all the time. we're supposed to just shrug about cheaters, liars and the like? and then we wonder why our sport isn't as popular?

Originally Posted by PatCummings (Post 955154)

The ultimate value of the information should not be in question. Value is always in the eye of the interpreter. But there is an official keeper of the data

I'm no lawyer, but I highly recommend everyone read the indictments, specifically of the clocker, if you haven't already. The federal involvement is made pretty clear. Here is my understanding...

1. The ability to bet on races from out of state is an exercise in interstate commerce, a power overseen by the federal government. This came through in the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978

2. The distribution of the signal across state lines is, essentially, a wire.

3. The feds allege, in the indictments, that attempting to or actually being caught injecting a horse with a substance that is prohibited, or at a time that is prohibited, is an act or an attempt to manipulate the outcome of the race.

4. As the race is distributed over "wire" across state lines, attempting to manipulate the outcome (or provide purposely incorrect information which is offered in the official record of the race and details of each horse, used by the bettors to draw their own conclusions), is deemed fraudulent - again, by the allegations put forth in the indictment.

Does it seem that hundreds of trainers or some number of clockers could be identified as in violation of the law, as it is attempting to be applied now? Yes.

Does it seem this is an attempt to set a new precedent, and thereby presumably clean-up the sport? Yes, absolutely...at least in someone's mind.

Paulick has the link to the indictments in his story:
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...penn-national/

Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 955183)

and it's this attitude held by many in the sport that has led to federal involvement. racing has a lot of money changing hands all the time. we're supposed to just shrug about cheaters, liars and the like? and then we wonder why our sport isn't as popular?

as for the gelding who is now intact, was there intent? a conspiracy to defraud? or just a mistake in an announcement. maybe the 6 horse in race 8 was a gelding, and they said the 8 horse in race 6 instead.
someone paying someone else to give repeated false info-whole different case.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 955186)

I still am trying to understand why trying to win is fraud.

Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 955187)

trying to win isn't fraud. how is falsifying data and paying off a clocker trying to win?
trying to win by juicing a horse is fraud. or at least cheating.

i'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner, with all the rumblings the last few years. some people have been saying for some time that racing needed to do more, have consistent rules, have a way to punish the notorious cheaters.
well, someone got cheated, or knows somebody, or the feds just had enough-or saw an opening.
of course it all may lead to nothing. the feds don't win all their cases. but if these people end up found guilty, they have no one to blame but themselves.
tracks want people to bet-it would be in their best interest to keep things as honest as possible. they need to take a page out of the casinos book-they don't countenance anyone working the system, and they get lots of customers because of it. if a casino was perceived as having dealers working for and with certain customers, they won't have other patrons for long.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 955185)

What they are claiming is pretty clear. My question is do these acts constitute felonies? Obviously they believe they can make these cases but I have doubts especially in the case of Rogers that the timing and person delivering a legal medication constitutes criminal manipulation other than in the broadest of definitions. Does the supposed personal monetary gain matter because the trainer of record (of which Rogers isnt) doesnt make a whole lot of money winning a race at Penn National.
In other words no one "manipulates" a race for the hell of it but the monetary gain here involving simply the trainers % of the purse is a pretty paltry sum for a case in Federal Court. I don't recall what class level her race was but the largest purse at Penn is generally 35k which would make the trainers % worth about 2000 which is less than the limit of small claims court. I understand that there are people who are betting on the race but as in every race in the parimutual system, the same amount was paid out to betters regardless of who wins.

I am not defending the accused here because they did in fact break the rules. My question is are these really felonies, should taxpayer money be spent trying cases in which the publics interest is only marginally affected (only the losing bettors could claim harm) and how broad are these interpretation going to be?

We have legal wagering on sporting events in 4 states I believe. Are pro sports next? Isn't a player who takes a PED doing the same thing?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 955189)

And as far as the clocker is concerned is faulty equibase information really a felony?

Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 955191)

Taking money to print phony workouts is not "faulty Equibase" information. There was intent to deceive here.

Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 955190)

You are overlooking the part that the participants may well be betting too. So it isn't just the purse amount that matters. It may very well be that some of those bettors are the people charged.

Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 955191)

Taking money to print phony workouts is not "faulty Equibase" information. There was intent to deceive here.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 955202)

Let me be clear, I don't want to make it out as though I am defending any of these people because they are all guilty of serious transgressions. Personally I have no problem with intervention from authorities if the rules/law and penalties are clear and applied across the board, not just cherry picking bit players at a C level track. However I have little confidence that this will be the case as there is no reason to expect that Federal prosecutors in other jurisdictions will have any desire to get involved with horseracing regulation. My other concern is that the broad interpretation concerning wire acts makes non-intentional medication violations into criminal acts, perhaps not felonies but misdemeanors and that will more or less kill off most of racing. Trainers will simply not be able to accept the risk under the current system of testing and oversight.

Originally Posted by Duvalier (Post 955201)

Are all those tracks that you keep saying are providing wrong timed races...even after you have said that you have brought it to their attention, committing a felony? That information is going straight to equibase, even though they know it is wrong and you know it is wrong. Is someone trying to deceive the betting public...they've been made aware yet wrong times continue to be submitted? Is someone betting those races and benefiting, knowing the times are wrong.

I'm just asking because you are obviously really tuned into the timing and numbers of races with Timeform. Do you think anyone can benefit betting these races, knowing the information is faulty?