I think abortion is a unique issue in many ways...I oppose abortion personally but am against repeal of Roe...and yes, a complex issue that invokes strong emotions. I agree with your points (except I don't obviously feel my statements are excessive). The reason I left Christianity was the "one way" concept that inevitably leads to a feeling of moral superiority and the right to dictate to others how to live and what to believe (that's my feeble attempt to summarize a complex and personally difficult decision). When Coach responded to the "old man", he highlighted some of my post...yes, I feel justified in calling the Westboro folks some choice names, frankly...I'm being kind imo.

[quote=timmgirvan]
Come on Timm, of course they are (were) spokesmen for the religious right...one ran for President the other built a rather substantial empire with millions of followers. Me saying something doesn't make it true...the facts are what they are. Never said I hated Bush (I don't), simply point out the facts...is the country in better shape now than 8 years ago? Of course many folks are drinking the Koolade...you deny that...then please explain the homophobia, the evoking of "God's Will" against Obama, etc. etc. And of course, the obligatory ridicule of my faith...standard in the thinking of those "blessed with the only religious truth". By the way, if you want to ridicule my faith you should understand what my beliefs are...otherwise you come across as ignorant...and your statement, as condescending as it is, is further proof that you do indeed drink the Koolade!

i guess what I meant by excessive was your first post seemed to generalize all conservatives with that line of thinking.

I am very conservative with my political views - but those ultra conservatives really piss me off with their Morality highground BS and bringing God into everything. I am pretty liberal with my social views - which I also feel social issues have to reason to be in politics. Except abortion - that is a unique subject and I call myself Pro-Nothing. I think it is very wrong to use abortion as a means of birth control because you are so damn lazy.. but I feel there are situations and instances that occur all the time where there are tough decisions to make.

But yeah - those few Christians who want to chastize everyone's morality believe we all originated from one man and one rib- and also believe those pep's in the Old Test. used to live til they were 548 years old. I mean really.. WTF?

[quote=somerfrost]
obviously not, but a lot of things happened the past 8 years that changed the course of the world, and bush did not have control over many things.

I honestly believe that it could have been ANYONE in office the past 8 years - a dem, repub or indy - and we would still be in a similar situation today and that pres would be thought of the way Bush is thought of.

[quote=somerfrost]I disagree with the premise that the SPOKE for the conservative Christian!
That they were successful in their endeavours is not the issue. Quid pro Quo on the obligatory bashing of faith,bub...you never miss a beat to deride the folks who disagree with your faith. Of course the country isn't in better shape..DOH!..yet you lay that soley at Bushs feeet? While the various industries were finding a way to get the most money for the least service, they finally burst the magic bubble of greed and are falling swiftly on their butts,and putting the rest of our society at tremendous risk.
As far as homophobia....over half the country(as votes prove) is unable to come to a satisfactory solution. The only Kool-aid being consumed is by the rabid followers of Obama. Your dissolution of faith comes from discarding the Bible as the course of your life...it's much more comfortable not having to stand up for age old concepts. Actually, no condescension intended....life is a bitch for sure...we all have to make a decision, though it's true that if you don't make one, you've decided already.

[quote=Antitrust32]all things considered..I pretty much agree with you on this.

Pretty much agree regarding abortion...I consider myself a feminist and being anti-abortion leads to some lively debates with other feminists but I see abortion as a tool to deprive women of true equality. I agree that, in the end, the woman must make the difficult decision but that in itself is unfair as it took two folks to create the situation.
I won't critize religious beliefs, my beef is with those who use them to dictate morality to others. The folks I cite bastardize faith and convert messages of love to hate.

[quote=Antitrust32]So you are saying that any other president would have pushed the issue on Iraq the way Bush did?????????????????????

Surely you jest.

[quote=Antitrust32]From the standpoint of the war I would agree to a degree. Gore very clearly indicated that he would have gone into Iraq. After things got underway though... I doubt he would have handled it the same.

But the absolutely horrible associations Bush made in so many areas from VP to FEMA to the Justice Dept. The list is very long. He gave way too many incompetent buddies jobs that require ability. Bush will go down as one of the absolute worst at judging people imo.

[quote=dalakhani]yes at that time back in 02 or 03 the dems were for the war also. the intelligence would have still been the same (its not like bush and cheney alone came up with the WMD thing - tons of countries invaded Iraq with us because of that international intelligence & I doubt they would have went to war because Bush says there are weapons).

So yes I believe any Prez would have gone to war in Iraq. Like Pgardn said though.. the way it was handled after that would have been different for each individual hypothetical president.

Do you forget that the whole country was behind the war in Iraq when we invaded?

[quote=Antitrust32]No, the whole country WASNT in favor of Iraq. The whole country was given false information and called traitors if you didnt agree with the "bush doctrine". I dont think most any other, dem or republican, would have lied to congress and to the world for that matter and taken such a brazen stance.

International intelligence? Ton of countries? OMG, you win.:wf

^^^^^^^^
disregards facts that don't fit his worldview

[quote=timmgirvan]
Ok, we disagree on Robertson and Falwell.
Now...the faith thing....don't recall ever using my faith as a criteria for disagreeing with folks...anyway, it's interesting that you justify your remarks in that way. and...."Your dissolution of faith comes from discarding the Bible as the course of your life...it's much more comfortable not having to stand up for age old concepts"....thanks for proving my point! For the sake of accuracy, my faith predates Christianity by about 10,000 years...more importantly, you demonstrate exactly what I and others have been saying...more Koolade?

[quote=dalakhani]
this whole post is full of dangerous assumptions ESPECIALLY bolded sentence. Your conspiracy theorys are in line with Mr. Michael Moore.

Ton of countries??? shows how much you know Dala. Here is a list of the Coalition of forces that are currently or have been involved in this Iraq War.




South Korea: 3,600 peak—600 current (9/08; deployed 5/03)
Romania: 730 peak—501 current (11/08; deployed 7/03)
El Salvador: 380 peak—200 current (8/08; deployed 8/03)
Czech Republic: 300 peak—17 current (8/08)
Azerbaijan: 250 peak—88 current (9/07)
Albania: 120 peak—240 current (8/08; deployed 4/03)
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 85 troops (8/08; deployed 6/05)
Ukraine: 1,650 peak-37 current (2/08; deployed 8/03)
Estonia: 40 troops (12/07; deployed 6/05)
Macedonia: 77 troops (9/08; deployed 7/03)
Moldova: 24 peak—20 current (10/08; deployed 9/03)
Bulgaria: 485 peak—155 current (11/08; deployed 5/03)
Singapore: 161 peak-1 current (6/07; deployed 12/03)
Tonga: 55 troops (deployed 7/04)
Latvia: 136 peak (deployed 5/03-withdrawn 11/08)
Poland: 200 invasion—2,500 peak (withdrawn 10/08)
Kazakhstan: 29 troops (deployed 9/03-withdrawn 10/08)
Armenia: 46 troops (deployed 1/05-withdrawn 10/08)
Mongolia: 180 peak (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 09/08)
Georgia: 2,000 peak (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 8/08)
Slovakia: 110 peak (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 12/07)
Denmark: 545 peak (deployed 4/03-withdrawn 12/07)
Lithuania: 120 peak (deployed 6/03—withdrawn 08/07)
Italy: 3,200 peak (deployed 7/03—withdrawn 11/06)
Norway: 150 troops (deployed 7/03—withdrawn 8/06)
Japan: 600 troops (deployed 1/04—withdrawn 7/06)
Hungary: 300 troops (deployed 8/03—withdrawn 3/05)
Netherlands: 1,345 troops (deployed 7/03—withdrawn 3/05)
Portugal: 128 troops (deployed 11/03—withdrawn 2/05)
New Zealand: 61 troops (deployed 9/03—withdrawn 9/04)
Thailand: 423 troops (deployed 8/03—withdrawn 8/04)
Philippines: 51 troops (deployed 7/03—withdrawn 7/04)
Honduras: 368 troops (deployed 8/03—withdrawn 5/04)
Dominican Republic: 302 troops (withdrawn 5/04)
Spain: 1,300 troops (deployed 4/03—withdrawn 4/04)
Nicaragua: 230 troops (deployed 9/03—withdrawn 2/04)
Iceland: 2 troops (deployed 5/03—withdrawal date unknown)


Okay maybe 40 countries isnt a TON :rolleyes:

Oh I got this from Wiki... or is that a conservative blog which should not be paid attention to?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_Forces

learn something why dont you.

What I find interesting is that the international community
was very much behind going into Afghanistan and ridding
them of the Taliban and finding Bin Laden. The French even
sent troops. Where have they all gone?

I think we have indeed acted very brazen without worrying
about what other countries think. But when we witness what
has happened in Europe through a number of wars, and now
with the mess in Afghanistan, one can understand why we
dont necessarily listen to advice from "the world".

That being said our new president will be much more judicious
in his actions and will consult the international community. But
Obama knows history, he knows that the international community
can also do a very poor job of assessing conflict and how to resolve it.
So he will listen, and give the necessary diplomatic lip service, and then
do what he thinks is best for this country. As it should be.

[quote=somerfrost]Selective answers always from you! We can always take the discussion of faith to PM. In any event, your answers are always replete with some fear crap about the religious right. Well it appears that your fearless leader(or clueless) is getting ready to crush the 2nd amendment, and his SOS will take things away from us for our own good(her words) Accuracy?? please tell me what the Wiccan faith has done in 12,000 years to better humanity? ZIP NADA ZILCH....but don't take that personally. No comment about the main text of my post?? I thought not!

[quote=Antitrust32]So comedy!

[quote=Antitrust32]Okay, go through your post. YOu list Iceland with 2 troops. Khazakstan with 29 troops? Look at the list. Are you kidding me?

Yes, the support was overwhelming.:D

[quote=timmgirvan]Timm.
Christians dont exactly have a stellar record dealing with humanity.

[quote=timmgirvan]
I just realized I forgot to add some:

United Kingdom: 45,000 invasion—4,100 current (9/08)
Australia: 2,000 invasion—~300 current (07/08)



:o :D

But it was ALL a Bush lie huh? gimme a break dala.