Sending horses to Dubai for the winter has already proven to be a failed experiment. If they happen to win one KY Derby it will not erase all the mistakes they have made in the past. Their blunders are what is impressive about their organization ( as it relates to American racing ). Not running Ruler's Court in the BC Juvenile ( when did he next race? ) should go in the HOF. Who knows what Street Cry might have done had he remained in training in the US. Worldly Manner may well have only been a miler, but he hardly disgraced himself in the Derby, and who knows what he might have done had he been handled differently. And this is with no research, and off the top of my head, thus I am sure there are others.

Yes, much of it has to do with poor purchases ( Linny's reminder of Comeonmom was the coup de gras ), but their tactics certainly haven't helped. Remember something else, they haven't even come close to succeeding in our TC contests with their plan.

What, you mean horses like Secretariat and Slew?

Huh?

Sorry, I'm on a laptop and I get lazy typing on these things.

What I meant was in response to you saying they had used the wrong types of horses for their great plans to conquer the derby.

When I said Secretariat and Slew, that was meant to ask if those were the right kinds of horses they need for their plan. You know, the immortal great kinds.

Certainly, those kinds of horses would help. But I don't think they need them to be that good. I just don't think they've had more than a couple that were probably the kind that would be considered legit contenders, no matter where they spent the winter. I just don't feel like it's right to say something has failed when it's only had a couple of real chances to succeed. Personally, I feel like it's more logical to say Pletcher is a failure than Sheikh Mo. He's had more chances, he gets great stock, and he doesn't have them winter in Dubai so they take traditional American routes to get there and yet he's still winless. But I don't think he's a failure either. I think in both cases, it just hasn't happened yet. I feel that if Sheikh Mo had spent $5k instead of $5 million on his horses, they wouldn't be looked at as failures. They would be looked at as cheap horses that didn't amount to much and I don't think that because he's got tons of money and spends it like crazy should change the fact that most of those horses he's bought wouldn't have had a chance no matter how much they cost or where they were trained. I think his failure has been in evaluating the horses. That much we can all agree on.

You are going to have to clarify something for me....

Either he is the absolute worst judge of horseflesh that will ever exist in this game or sending horses to Dubai to prep for the TC series is a poor idea. It can't be both....or neither.

The Sheik has bought the most expensive and well bred yearlings for over 25 years. He has bought the best broodmares available. He has gobbled up as many top 2YOs as he could. Yet, nothing has worked. He didn't spend $5K, or $5 million....he spent hundreds of millions persueing Anerican Classic hopefuls. And, yet, it hasn't worked. So, what is it.

Todd Pletcher has had far less talent in his hands, and accomplished a great deal more in America, than the Sheik. He is a raging success, compared to most everyone, and certainly the Sheik, in this country.

My argument has never been that going to Dubai for the winter is the best way of doing it. I've only debated those that say that it will never work. I don't see any reason why it can't. If I was presented with facts that said horses wintering over there end up worse off than their American counterparts, I'd listen. But just as easily as someone can point out how Ruler's Court was injured and never lived up to his promise, I can point out War Pass. Just as they can mention a Street Cry, I can mention a Java Gold. I just don't happen to agree that a lot of horses come back worse than they go. I think most of them weren't much in the first place so I didn't expect them to come back and be better. What I think is a bigger issue than WHERE they are trained is HOW they are trained. The Sheikhs have had an abundance of success in Europe. They still have success in Europe with horses they winter in Dubai. I feel like part of the problem is that they try to apply some of the same training principles to win American races as they do Europeans ones and that doesn't work out too well.

I don't see why it can't be some of both. He takes bad purchases and combines it with not giving them every advantage to win. Really good horses can overcome things. Average or bad ones can't.

Of course Pletcher has had much more success here than the Sheikh has. But not when it comes to the Derby.

If they were cheap and he won anything I'd say good on him, but they are not cheap. Much of what he's bought and raised (Comeonmom notwithstanding) has been very valuable bloodstock, whether he over paid for it or not. Several of his horses might have had a shot had they stayed in the US, as Bernardini did. Don't you think that Sheik Mo's only US classic winner would have made him re-evaluate his plan to get to the "biggest classic?" Had Bernardini gone to Dubai would he have won the Preakness? Would he have made it back? The lesson of history says "NO" pretty emphatically.
If he'd kept some of these horses in the US with trainers who know more about US racing than Saeed bin Suroor he might have had a shot. He takes a bunch of elite dirt bred colts to Europe every season to race over the bogs of Ascot and York when they could be winning the Hopeful and the Champagne and the Florida Derby and yes, maybe even the KY Derby.

As far as Pletcher, yes he's has plenty of shots but several of them were sprinter/milers with ambitious owners looking to be wined and dined in Louisville and honestly, how many years has he really tried. This year (2008) was only about his 5th try, albeit with about 10 horses each season.:rolleyes: Sh. Mo has been after this for a decade and as Andy points out, instead of Louisville in May, he keeps getting Ozone Park in November.

Really? Has the Sheik hit the board in the KY Derby?

The point isn't that he's failed, it's that he has failed miserably, year after year. A huge percentage of the horses he sends to Dubai to prep for American races don't show up until Saratoga, at the earliest. He's not even coming close.

But, you now suggest it's a combination of both, but this belies your initial post in this thread, as do some of your other remarks....



So, can you please clarify it all for me now, and tell me which posts represent your true opinion on this. They can't all do that.

I don't think that saying that he's not giving them every advantage is the same as saying it's a disadvantage. And again, I'm not saying that he couldn't have more success doing it our way instead of his. My argument has been with those that automatically write off the chances of those that are sent over there saying it can't be done. I think it can but only with the right horse.

I'm still confused........

It feels contradictory but whatever.

i just don't like the way his left-front looks when he strides.

goldolphin bashing aside :p

no but i've stayed at a holiday inn express
 

take a look at the head ons from the calracing replays. Watch the left front during the stretch runs.

i'll post a .gif or something if i get a chance

Not giving them every advantage IS a disadvantage. Not giving them every advantage = going to Dubai. Look at Shadwell. Shiek Hamdan, Mo's bro., he has had much more success here winning a bc classic, the belmont and having two horses recently win eclipse awards.
Shiek Mo's whole focus is proving he can have a horse trained in Dubai and then win the Derby. He gobbles up every two year old that wins impressively. Yet, where has he been in the classic races? You are a fan who has been "rooting for this" for awhile. I've learned that being a fan can really distort your objectivity. It sure does mine. If he does win the derby this way, it is going to have to be a horse like Secretariat/Slew. But I wonder, how many has he had that might have been THE HORSE already.

i think that one thing darley ignores is shipping...we all know that shipping can be hard on a horse, and they do it often, with young stock. they buy here, spend time in quarantine, and then travel. and then a few months later, do it again-while trying to prepare for what is probably the toughest race they'll ever attempt.
perhaps if they concentrated on getting good horses and doing right by them, instead of trying to make the horses fit their mold, they'd have a better thing going each spring. you have to follow the horses cues if you want good results.
blues and royals a few years back was one of their most promising horses. he missed all three classics from illness after shipping here from dubai, eventually succumbing to shipping fever. yet they continue to try. why? seems counter-productive.
but then...he buys horses here to ship to dubai for their carnival-that hasn't worked too well either. how's thor's echo these days?

I have sen all but VH's debut and not seen anthing strange. Besides I would get that Frankel vetted him and that Sheik MO did the same. Unless you have more data and experience that Sh. Mo's vets, it's not worthy of comment.