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-   -   For all the Big Brown Boneheads (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22658)

blackthroatedwind 05-22-2008 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollerDoc
Perhaps sensitive is appropriate but I hope you will consider that three posters including you off the bat didn't even give me a chance.

This is the kind of post that makes people call other posters " trolls. "

Just argue your points. If they're strong enough they stand on their own. If they aren't....deal with it.

Trolls whine about people being mean to them. You choose.

justindew 05-22-2008 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I think NoBiz is a very good horse. I also think Zanjero is pretty good as well.

I'll put it in relative terms....they were better 3YOs, by a reasonable amount, than Flashy Bull. Had either been sound, and made a reasonable progression from three to four, they could have been competitive in the top races as long as Curlin didn't run. Do you honestly think either one of them couldn't have won the Pimlico Special for instance? How about this year's Donn?
I'm now printing and framing this post instead.

This is my happiest Derby Trail moment.

You're gonna admit that Zanjero is a likely Grade I winner soon, aren't you?

hi_im_god 05-22-2008 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollerDoc
May I ask why you have been on my case about the thread I started last night from the get go? I'm sorry if I'm fairly new here but my questions were legit (for me). If they are too entry level for your tastes then don't respond at all instead of how you did? Why would you treat a stranger that way?
i gave it a 90 vs. an 86 here. i had hoped it would be better but i have to give it an unbiased rating based on the subject variant.

and just because i got in the bunker before it got good is no reason to be so mean.

i'm a little sensitive right now so i apologize if i'm wrong about you but i don't think we should see each other anymore.

it's not you, it's me.

RollerDoc 05-22-2008 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
What did anyone actually do or say to you that was so bad anyway?
It's all there in my Questions about Big Brown thread. Not going to rehash. Plus you and I exchanged a couple of private IMs last night so I think you know.

justindew 05-22-2008 06:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollerDoc
It's all there in my Questions about Big Brown thread. Not going to rehash. Plus you and I exchanged a couple of private IMs last night so I think you know.
This thread just took a shocking twist.

blackthroatedwind 05-22-2008 06:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by justindew
I psyched about the props Andy gave to Zanjero, even though he doesn't realize it.
There are reasons I didn't expect Zanjero to win a Grade 1, like you did, this year. One is that I don't really think he's good enough ( don't forget, Pimlico hadn't faked their way into making the Grade 3 Shaeffer the Grade 1 Pim Special until March ). Now, I would have to say I did slightly overestimate this year's group ( which you, smartly, didn't ). However, the other reason is that Assmussen has not exactly had a good record of developing horses past 2 or 3. That trend is continuing.

And don't use Curlin as a counter example. It would be beneath you. I think you probably agree with me overall.

Cannon Shell 05-22-2008 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollerDoc
It's all there in my Questions about Big Brown thread. Not going to rehash. Plus you and I exchanged a couple of private IMs last night so I think you know.
Do you go to ASU?

justindew 05-22-2008 06:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
However, the other reason is that Assmussen has not exactly had a good record of developing horses past 2 or 3. That trend is continuing.

And don't use Curlin as a counter example. It would be beneath you. I think you probably agree with me overall.
What about Curl.......oh.....nevermind.

RollerDoc 05-22-2008 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
This is the kind of post that makes people call other posters " trolls. "

Just argue your points. If they're strong enough they stand on their own. If they aren't....deal with it.

Trolls whine about people being mean to them. You choose.
Why would I "argue" my points when the thread was QUESTIONS about Big Brown. I was clearly asking for some opinions to my questions. I was hoping to learn.

Maybe a troll is somebody who doesn't know the difference between arguing and asking? I'm not trying to be oppositional but if I am whining it is because of several who instead of answering my questions instead put me down for starting a Big Brown thread and entry level questions. Instead if you are that bothered by it, then go on to the next thread.

Cannon Shell 05-22-2008 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollerDoc
Why would I "argue" my points when the thread was QUESTIONS about Big Brown. I was clearly asking for some opinions to my questions. I was hoping to learn.

Maybe a troll is somebody who doesn't know the difference between arguing and asking? I'm not trying to be oppositional but if I am whining it is because of several who instead of answering my questions instead put me down for starting a Big Brown thread and entry level questions. Instead if you are that bothered by it, then go on to the next thread.
Who put you down? Stop your whining.

Cajungator26 05-22-2008 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
He's a very good horse Dave. There's no denying that. However, in the pantheon of TC winners he is nothing special. Silver Charm could have done exactly what Big Brown has done, and then some, and he was hardly revered in the manner of this horse. Yes, I am comparing him to some pretty heady company, and that is a compliment to Big Brown, but let's stop pretending he is something he has so far proven not to be.

Bottom line for me is that he would have been no better than third in last year's Preakness.
Speak for yourself. :o

philcski 05-22-2008 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
He's a very good horse Dave. There's no denying that. However, in the pantheon of TC winners he is nothing special. Silver Charm could have done exactly what Big Brown has done, and then some, and he was hardly revered in the manner of this horse. Yes, I am comparing him to some pretty heady company, and that is a compliment to Big Brown, but let's stop pretending he is something he has so far proven not to be.

Bottom line for me is that he would have been no better than third in last year's Preakness.
I think you know what I think of Big Brown, and have from the start... Silver Charm would have blown his doors off. He wasn't revered because he had to battle for both the Derby and the Preakness- most people aren't smart enough to realize how good a group that '97 TC was (and it was excellent) versus the pathetic group we have this year- they just see margin of victory.

I still get goosebumps seeing that Derby stretch run when they play it on HRTV, or Denman's call of the Big Cap.

justindew 05-22-2008 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by philcski
most people aren't smart enough to realize how good a group that '97 TC was (and it was excellent) versus the pathetic group we have this year- they just see margin of victory.
I'm not sure how smart one needs to be to see the difference.

SniperSB23 05-22-2008 11:46 PM
So let's have a role call. How many of the boneheads have actually gone and ordered the book? I'm guessing none, as they'd rather live in their fantasy world. I'm also guessing all the evil contrarians out to discredit Big Brown already own a copy.

Danzig 05-22-2008 11:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I give him plenty of credit. Just because I'm realistic doesn't mean I don't believe he's a very nice horse. How many times do I need to say it? What he isn't is as good, right now, as Curlin was at this point in 2007. Yes, the same Curlin who had pretty much a similar campaign. Yes, the same Curlin who has developed into a terrific horse but is no better, if even as good, as Skip Away. No knock there either. Skip Away was a marvelous horse. However, I don't see a lot of people saying he belongs in the same class as Seattle Slew. Thank God....because he doesn't. But, at least he ran many top notch races.

Denis of Cork is a very nice horse? Compared to what? Everything is relative. Using him as a comparison is probably unfair even to Big Brown. I should hope he is ten lengths better than Denis of Cork if he wins the TC. Hell, I should hope he is 15 lengths better.

I've seen a lot of wonderful racehorses. Maybe that's why I don't wet myself over ever reasonable horse that comes down the pike. I'm still waiting for another Go for Wand. If you want to see what a real champion is take a good look at her lifetime pps.

Denis of Cork? Give me a break.
i feel the same way about it, excellent post.

blackthroatedwind 05-22-2008 11:49 PM
Why learn something about the game when it's easy to live in a fantasy world?

Danzig 05-22-2008 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by philcski
I think you know what I think of Big Brown, and have from the start... Silver Charm would have blown his doors off. He wasn't revered because he had to battle for both the Derby and the Preakness- most people aren't smart enough to realize how good a group that '97 TC was (and it was excellent) versus the pathetic group we have this year- they just see margin of victory.

I still get goosebumps seeing that Derby stretch run when they play it on HRTV, or Denman's call of the Big Cap.
this is exactly what i'm talking about! time and distance, helps put things in perspective. we all know silver charm was a good horse, a very good horse-altho he didn't probably get as much credit than from many as he does now! 11 years later....
who here misses silver charm? i do!

Coach Pants 05-23-2008 12:02 AM
Comparing today's horse to the champions of the past is a waste of time.

The sport will never be the same. Mediocre horses like Evening Attire get press by simply being a suckup horse still competing at an advanced age. If this horse was a professional basketball player he'd be Dikembe Mutumbo.

1 year campaigns. Maybe 1 and a half. 10 races max. Bobby Hurleys.

fpsoxfan 05-23-2008 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hickory Hill Hoff
I guess you'll get the book after the race and still have $8.50 left.....:D
all kidding aside, it's a great book to have, I have the first edition and at this price it's a steal.
As far as BIG Brown, it's still 16 days to go to the race.....anything can happen...Pat, don't count on the wager just yet!
Being very careful not to "Hanifin" myself. So my lips are sealed. The one thing that would be nice would be sunny and 80 with no wind on the deck.

fpsoxfan 05-23-2008 06:03 AM
The beauty of this whole thing is how Big Brown is perceived by the general public. We can hash this out all day long because many people on here love the game, know the game, and have a great appreciation for its history.

Enter average sports fan. Since the Preakness I've been asked by many of my teaching and umpiring colleagues, friends, students, etc. what I think about Big Brown. It's interesting to see the excitement that this horse has generated among the general public. We can hash this out all we want to, just like baseball enthusiast would compare players from past to present, but it's the people who think that Silver Charm is an anniversary gift that this story is reaching out to and they are grabbing it.


So, where am I going with this? For the first time in quite a while, we have a horse, like him or not who is putting horse racing on the map. It's the first time in 21 years of following this game that I've seen this much interest from the casual fan. Let's run with it!


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