Derby Trail Forums - Pletcher to have no horses in the Travers

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I think NoLuvForPletch summed up my opinon in the best way...Pletcher is a VERY VERY overrated trainer!

He starts with so much of the best bloodstock that the ones that get to the track and run under his name are actually a subset of what he is given. He sends some away which don't have much talent before they even get a chance to further reduce his stats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

Does anyone have these numbers/information:

How many drug positives does Pletcher have?

What was the infraction for each?

I'm not sure where you can get that information but it is something that should be made easily available through TOBA or NTRA for people looking to get into the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

Does anyone have these numbers/information:

How many drug positives does Pletcher have?

What was the infraction for each?

I don't but i'd also like to know how many 2yo started with him only to be retired early due to injury or end up being run down a la Flower Alley.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot

The horses don't train themselves.

Discreet Cat does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

True, but he's like a New York bred, he "starts with an advantage". A really, really BIG advantage. Especially when you factor in that he has so much good stock and he prevents them from running into each other that his numbers and the numbers of his animals are a bit inflated.

To get successful athletic performance (be it humans, horses, or the best flying monkeys), you need three things:

1) Genetic potential: Conformation, cardiovascular and physiologic capabilities, muscle type, mental attributes

2) Optimal health: Nutrition, disease prevention, maintaining soundness

3) Training and conditioning practices: Training to perform a specific task, conditioning to appropriate fitness, mental preparation

The trainer is responsible for all of the above. Pletcher may maximize #1 (which goes to his ability to select or accept stock with appropriate potential), but he's still responsible for #2 and #3, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELA

Actually, no, a one dimensional view of "data" -- your data in this case -- which is a very myopic view -- is not an indicator of his abilities . . . and you know that . . . oh no you don't . . . look at your handle, LOL.

Was BC day results an indicator of Bobby Frankel's training abilities, when he was 0 for 30 plus? It didn't keep him out of the Hall of Fame. Sure, there were his critics and their opinion counted for crap then, just like it does now. People who are in this business, who have been in this game a long time, who have paid their dues -- some of them know who good trainers are. Not someone who picks one stat and says "Hey, look what I found, and now my opinion counts".

We all know what they say -- Statistics don't lie, only statisticians do.

Listen, I am not a fan of Todd Pletcher. I have often said that in his position, and in his situation, going 0 for whatever in TC races can be an issue, especially for the critics. However, his owners don't seem to mind. That's neither here nor there. It's their issues -- not mine. I've often said -- do those owners spend that kind of money to win training titles, maiden specials, and "A other thans" or do they spend that kind of money to win the big dance? It's easy to be a critic, but that doesn't make Todd Pletcher "not a very good trainer" so to speak. Regardless, that one piece of data, is not an indication of his abilities.

Anyway, that is just one of the reasons he wouldn't be my choice to train a top 2yo or 3yo. I've never been a fan of corporate training per se. Although I have a trainer who has 200 or so horses, however, I view it as a different operation, set-up, different mindset, requirements, etc. I've spoke with several trainers, well respected horsemen, who question his operation, methodolgies, ability to manage an operation with that size and scope, and so on. Some think he does an excellent job, others think he's more of a CEO than a trainer. Still, others think he is not a good horseman and things must slip through the cracks. And still others think that the assembly line is not a way to train horses, and so on and so on. One of these opinions comes from a Hall of Fame trainer, one who I respect. When those opinions start being thrown around here, I'll listen to them -- not to one piece of myopic and one dimensional information.

In addition, I have also said, that aside from shooting incredible #'s, which has it's substance and it's distortions, and winning record #'s of Grade 1's -- if you look at the truly prestigeous big dance races, the most prestigeous G'1s, it was not often that Pletcher truly came over with "the horse to beat" so to speak. Ashado was of course, and there might have been another instance or two. However, it's not like he strolled into every prestigeous G1 -- the ones that count on a stallion's or mare's resume -- and was even money or 3-5. I get all that and have said that often. That might of changed the past year or so, but prior, even Pletcher said in an interview, this was the case.

However, to say that "Pletcher is not a very good trainer" or to look at one piece of data and make that statement -- well, I guess there is not only plenty of horse manure at the track, but here as well, LOL.

I'll leave the rest to the critics and the training icons.

Eric

So after all of that, is it your contention that he is a "bad trainer", "so-so trainer", "good trainer", "very good trainer", "excellent trainer", "the best current trainer", "the best trainer of all time" or is he "more of a CEO"?

It was merely MY opinion that with all that he is provided by his owner in the way of bloodstock, his numbers in those races that he can't control the make-up of the race, like BC races (you can also throw TC races in there) his numbers are less than stellar. Hence MY contention that he might be slightly overrated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Discreet Cat does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

Actually, you don't feel the 2 for 41 (5%) in BC races is any sort of indicator of his abilities?

No i don't. i won't rehash the response because ELA has already given you the reasons why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot

So take the Barclay Tagg's of the world. What do you thing he might do with Pletcher's client list? Or how about Allen Jerkens? What do you think he would do with Pletcher's client list? I'm just tired of people making him to out to be some kind of superhero. Like he's reinvented horse training or something. He's a guy who trains horses. And most of the time they are the best horses.

Quote:

I've never been a fan of corporate training per se. Although I have a trainer who has 200 or so horses, however, I view it as a different operation, set-up, different mindset, requirements, etc. I've spoke with several trainers, well respected horsemen, who question his operation, methodolgies, ability to manage an operation with that size and scope, and so on.

I've read somewhere (don't know if it's true) that you can give the name of any horse spread anywhere across the country in Pletcher's barns, and he can tell you all about that horses' current status, where it is in it's training, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

Speculation is just that - nobody knows. We don't know how many great horses never made it to our radar as they were with a lesser trainer at a lesser track.

I agree with you - he's a guy who trains horses. No superhero. But he does very well for himself, and his owners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot

Speculation is just that - nobody knows. We don't know how many great horses never made it to our radar as they were with a lesser trainer at a lesser track.

I agree with you - he's a guy who trains horses. No superhero. But he does very well for himself, and his owners.

Allen Jerkens is a "lesser trainer"? Wow!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

After the great "should Street Sense run in the Belmont Stakes" debate, I've tried to get out of the "(fill-in-the-blank)" should run in such and such a race. Question for you: has there been an instance in which you thought it was BS for a trainer to skip a race?

Great question -- very thought provoking, just in me having to think about giving you an answer. I really tend not to "worry" about other people's business, decisions, etc. -- I concentrate and have enough of my own, LOL. You make an excellent point with regard to the Street Sense debate; although I never viewed it has a debate. I didn't have a problem with the Nafzger/Tafel decision. Sure, like everyone, I would have loved to see him run. However, as I mentioned, I thought it was ludicrous to call them names or to say they don't care about the game, business or sport. I tought it nonsense to criticize them and their decision and say they are not "sporstmen" or anything of the like.

Be that as it may, although I can't think of the specific instance, I am sure there has been a case where my initial thought might have been that it was BS for a trainer to skip a race. But it's their decision. And if I did feel that way, it would have been myopic as well, due to the fact that it's his/her decision and I would have been completely unaware of the facts, circumstances, etc. Am I qualified to make such a decision? No, and I don't think many others are qualified as well.

I make my decisions based upon the input, advice, guidance, etc. from my own advisors -- primarily the trainer in question. If I don't trust that trainer, or his recommendation, then I have a much bigger problem.

Eric

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

Allen Jerkens is a "lesser trainer"? Wow!

??? Heck no, where'd you get that from? ("We don't know how many great horses never made it to our radar as they were with a lesser trainer at a lesser track." was general, certainly no reference to Jerkens or Tagg!)