It cost me $25 to get in to Churchill on Oaks Day and $40 on Derby Day. Not to mention they doubled the prices of every item in the concession stands. On Traver's Day I had to pay $5 and all the concessions were the same price. I could have brought in a case of beer if I wanted to as well. I definitely don't want to see Saratoga become like Churchill.

Give me a break. They got 70,000 at the Spa for blanket giveway day. The real attendance was probably 30,000. At Belmont on Oct 7 with 5 G1s on the card, they gave away the same blanket and with spinners the attendance was 16,500. There were not more than 8000 people at Belmont that day. I was there. Bunch of phony numbers if you ask me.

I think NYRA does a super job. The only thing I'd like to see is the poly at all 3tracks. If the NYRA was like Churchill you'd really see a HUGE decline in attendance. It would kill the Saratoga meet.

I was there, too. We arrived five minutes after the giveaway ended, so even though there were about two thousand left over blankets, our paid admissions got us nothing. It looked like a bigger wasteland than three years ago when we saw Mineshaft run away with the Woodward. NY fans are simply not supporting Belmont or Aqueduct. The Meadowlands and Monmouth have bigger crowds.:o

Belmont and Aqueduct are ghost towns. NYRA has done an absolutely miserable job marketing the two tracks with their stupid commercials about horse names. They have no concerts there, nothing. It is a complete joke.

They would draw zilch if Churchill or Magna ran the tracks.

You know this based on what? Atleast Churchill and Magna make efforts to attract people.

Saratoga is a goldmine. Even the idiots at NYRA couldn't screw that up.

The Meadowlands and Monmouth do not give away their signal for free the way NYRA does pretty much all over NY State. They also don't have OTBs next door to them, or even close, the way the NY tracks do.

Don't get me wrong, I wish more people went to Belmont and Aqueduct, but NYRA has gone out of its way to give its signal to those that want it and the betting figures reflect that.

Granted you are extremely qualified to identify idiots, but you love to throw out generalities ( obviously because you know no actual specifics ), and perhaps you would specifically like to identify these so-called " idiots ". Certianly you have learned by now that nobody is falling for your false generalizations.

It still is no excuse for not having concerts and poor promotion.

God forbid people went to the track then all the mobsters who own car dealerships wouldn't have anywhere to park the new cars they are selling.

Shut down that dump they call Aqueduct and build some more stalls at Belmont. There is no reason to have two racetracks. NYRA can sell the land they claim to own. LOL.

You're right. The same amoutn of people that are falling for my false generalizations is the same amount of people that go to NYRA's tracks. Zero. :eek:

You got your first thing right in this thread....you at least acknowledge you have zero credibility.

dont start with that polysh*t the death of racing

That coming from a guy who worked for NYRA is comical. Did you work for them before 2003? Were you one of the ones they got rid of for corruption. :eek:

kgar, can you fix your avatar. It doesn't come up at all. Just a big x there. Don't know if everyone can't see it either but I definitely can't.

is that better?

Well I can see it now. Not sure I want to though. LOL

Well it isnt a mystery that raises are less than inflation. Everyone is in the same boat. I think raises across the board increased 3.4% last year however inflation increased by much more that that. So you are like most workers out there. I don't think anyone is overpaid. I think people are paid they should be paid. If you think you are underpaid then you are over valuing yourself. If you think you are underpaid then you think you are worth more than you really are. And in regards to pension and health benefits, everyone is in the same boat. Who knows if it will be there or not. As of now, you have to assume it is but prepare for the worse. I for one could never be a teacher, just like i couldnt be a DR, mechani, pilot etc etc. The thing is to find what you are passionate about and do it. Ask yourself, what would u do for free and make that your career. My kids do not go to public school, they go to private. However, I think a strong public school system is vital to our society. In addition, I do not wany a teacher teaching my kids because of the money--I want them to teach because of their passion and their desire.

You really think it will be paid back--I really hope it is, but I think it will be like most situations -- it will be forgiven. The difference between loaning money to a non-prodfit and to a profit company is that the tax revenue is much higher for a profit company than a non-profit.

You are singling out two days of racing at Churchill. That is really unfair. Plus it is the two biggest days of racing other than the Breeders Cup. And it cost my buddy $25 for Travers day I think. I know that was the ticket price on their web site. And you can eat for around $6 at churchill at the restaurant. And beers are expensive but who cares. How many times do you go to the track per year?

I don't have a dog in this specific fight, but I race horses in NY so I do have a vested interest.

I think many people tend to look at the present situation -- and then often collapse the present situation with blame. I am not inferring that the present is an inherited situation. I am also not saying NYRA is an "angel" and has never done anything wrong; nor am I saying that everything is their fault. However, everything we see today is not due to NYRA, corruption, management, etc. What we see today, in my opinion, is an accumulation of numerous aspects -- not only of NYRA, management, etc. -- but of the industry in general.

The business model in NY, NY racing as a business and as a sport, has been broken for years. I didn't see any bidders hanging around and pushing for the franchise until the VLT legislation got passed. They didn't start pushing until the VLT deal was made. (I think we can all agree that is the VLT's were not approved -- nobody would be pushing, bidding, etc. on the franchise unless the land was up for grabs as well; or perhaps OTB).

Now, in my opinion, this is reflective of a bigger issue -- alternative revenue source(s) being available to fund the racing business. Keeneland gets a tremendous amount of money, revenue, directly from the sales company. Alternative revenue sources are very often an ancillary, then becoming a primary solution to a present problem -- a problem where a business model is broken. Now that doesn't mean that VLT's are the solution to the racing industry because we know it is not. VLT money will find its way into purse accounts, but we know the trickle-down, trickle-over, etc. effect will not happen. VLT players do not become fans nor do they become visitors to the windows -- not to any significant degree.

What will still hurt is that the tax rate (for the VLT dollars) in NY is extremely high.

You want to argue about non-profit vs. for-profit? Here is what most people do not understand -- non-profit is a tax status, not a management style.

What about Woodbine? What does their business model look like? A partnership between the government and the track, and it has proven successful. It has had a very positive impact on purses. What has it done for pure racetrack attendance, handle, etc.? This is very dangerous -- so at Finger Lakes management decides to invest $4m or so into the VLT side of the facility and goes against getting a turf course. Management said it was a "business" decision, a ROR/ROI decision, etc. But Woodbine has put money into the racetrack side of the facility.

This business and this sport -- not only in NY, but all over -- needs to reinvent itself. Not drastic change that completely changes the business and sport, but change the mindset and management style of running a track as a business and running a business in and around this sport.

Eric

Geez, Eric, I never realized you were such a smart guy.

It was $5 for general admission on Traver's Day, as opposed to $3 every other day. I have been to the track about 30-40 days in the past year.

When did the Travers become the equivalent of the Kentucky Derby. That is a joke. The Travers crowd is all NY, CT, NJ people. The Derby is 150,000 people from all over the world, with huge television ratings.

Most people have never even heard of the Travers. The Mid Summer Derby name is a complete joke.

Ok, so having more people at CD justifies 10 dollar hot dogs and 40 bucks just to get in the gate? oaks day is the same thing. A total rip off.

It sure does. Just like the Superbowl or World Series. It is America, the market sets the price, except in NY Racing where non-profits and corruption run rampant. I thought you were a Republican and believed in the free market. I guess it is another case of you talking out of both sides of your mouth. That must get tiring switching back and forth so often. :eek:

Face it, nobody cares about the Travers except horse racing fans. The KY Derby is a huge event, the rating are huge every year. The Travers would get cut for little league baseball, because little league baseball gets higher ratings.

Of course I believe in a free market. And the fact is that NYRA has always chosen not to rip people off at Saratoga, whenthey could have easily raised seat prices or admission prices in a huge fashion. They did not, and because of it fans should be grateful.
So what are you doing today after you get done with another episode of "as the imbecile rants" on here. My guess is that the next thing you have scheduled could cause you to go blind.:)

How is a nonprofit the free market? I see, you like it when it benefits you, but if a nonprofit running things means cheaper prices for you, than it is ok. Gotcha.

The next thing I have planned is class. Then tomorrow I am going to KY for a week to visit my friend who is doing an internship there. I am going to go see Lava Man, Great Hunter, Gorella and Cacique and go on a tour of Three Chimneys. Then I am going to the Breeders Cup. All I had to do is pay for the plane too.

Are you going to the Breeders Cup. Me, Nostradamus, George Washington, and their grandfather are going.

Thats a great tour man, Three Chimneys is a great outfit. A truly good operation not only in the quality of the sires that they stand, but in their business plan. I've read about the owner and his concept and it certainly seems to have established them as "the" place to stand one. Hes running a boutique operation rather a department store, meaning that by limiting the stallion roster that each horse gets the care and marketing that helps them to succeed. Snap some pictures of Smarty if you would and please post them.
Kentucky is an awesome place and I leave for it on Tuesday and can barely wait.

Very nice post.

When I went to the farm Smarty was one grumpy horse. Yes Its True and Point Given were as friendly as ever. Albert The Great was also a well behaved horse. War Chant was lead out to breed and Smarty about busted down his stall because he was jealous. It was funny.

LOL. Thanks Andy. I think you never realized it because I am always asking you for your opinion! LOL.

Anyway -- no offense everyone, but this has nothing to do with the prices of hotdogs and beer, or admission and parking for that matter.

Do not confuse cause and effect. Those elements would correct themselves if the larger, marcro-issues were addressed. I don't want to start another arguement here but the sport and the business around this sport has changed. It is not what it used to be 40 or 50 years ago. Some, all, or part of this has evolved into an entertainment environment. You know what's changed since then? Everything.

There are parts of this that are evolutionary and there are other parts that are revolutionary. Now I know the old fashion, diehard, hard-core, etc. gambler types will absolutely despise this and what's going on in our industry -- but today's racing facility, the product, and numeorus other aspects of sport/business are without question competing with other mediums and environments for our dollars. You don't have to like it or deal with it but it is a fact. OTB, off-shore, internet wagering, the back room at the bar, etc. -- all of them are competition. The casinos, race books, and other forms of entertainment and gambling, whether pari-mutuel or not. The products may be different, but we are talking about gambling dollars, entertainment, costs, etc.

Many people do not like what Frank Stronach is doing down at Gulfstream. I've been there numerous times so I am not speaking absent of facts. Stronach is a visionary. You may hate the vision, but he has one. You may think he is inept at running a publicly traded company. You may think he is guilty of many things. But he is committed to the vision.

Sports bars, fine dining, cigar lounges, VLT's, shows, and other forms of entertainment. Retail, commercial, other real estate strucutures. This will bring people to a facility. The track will be there. Will they turn into fans? Will they turn into gamblers? Will they turn into regulars? Possible -- not probable; not to a significant extent or degree. That is not the only answer though.

But this, and the alternative forms of revenue will find its way into purses. It will trickle into other areas. There will be ancillary effects -- yes, both positive and negative -- in other aspects. This should contribute and make progress toward more competitive fields and more competitive racing throughout a meet. This could attract people to the business (ownership; although that's another aspect of the business that needs to be cleaned up). This should lead to increased handle -- not just on-track handle however. Sure, there are several "shoulds" and "coulds" there -- but that is what's needed. A new paradigm. A paradigm shift in the way this sport and this business is looked at, operated, and run.

I don't mean to oversimplify the problems or the solutions. This ain't your mom and pop grocery store anymore. You can't run it like it is.

Eric

Eric I agree with you. Tracks cannot survive by just offering racing anymore. There needs to be other sources of revenue. Hopefully that revenue finds it was into purses. Who cares if a non-racing fan goes to the "racino" and takes in a show, or eats dinner or watches a movie. The point is that revenue is being generated to increase purses and that helps fields, horseman and basically the industry. If 1 of a thousand people turn into a horse player then it was a success. If not, horsemen will gladly accept the money the patrons spent on dinner or other forms of entertainment.

The business needs to evolve and not digress. It needs to transform likes other forms of entertainment has. I think it has a long long way to go but with people like Frank we can get there. Not saying his way is right, but at least he is trying.

I remember seeing horses like Seattle Slew and Affirmed at Belmont and Aqueduct, but we heard concerts, too! It was another time and IT AIN'T COMIN' BACK.:(

They are ghost towns. Without question. However, in NY, and with NYRA, there is no longer a question of how to make it better. Today it is a question of how to survive. They cannot start addressing these things until there is massive and drastic overhaul of state legislation (in addition to the business model).

However, personally, unless they turn a deaf ear and neglect to see the reality -- I believe it can come back. Perhaps I am being naive. However, I do remember years ago Barry Schwartz going up to Woodbine (I believe he visited other tracks with VLT's, racinos, etc. as well). I was talking with him once about it and I remember him talking about when he came back he spoke of the facility and the business model. He had a very positive reaction and attitude -- he liked it. Maybe I am wrong but that's the way I remember it and that is my interpretation. He might have even gone as far as saying something along the lines of "that's what we should have" or "we should build it that way" (I don't remember).

Anyway -- this is NY baby!!! The greatest place in the world!!! You want hot dogs -- you go to Nathan's in CI ! You want pastrami, head over to Katz's or the Carnegie Deli (I love The Stage as well, LOL). You want it, you got it and the best of it -- right here . . . The greatest city in the world.

AND . . . if you want racing baby -- well it should be that NY RACING IS WHERE IT'S AT!!! Don't count it out just yet. Some of us might think that it might be on life support . . . but it ain't dead yet. LOL.

Eric

I live in Northern NJ, in the boondocks. I have lived my entire life in the NY Metropolitan Area and I love it. I consider NYC to be the greatest city in the world, so I hope you are right about NY racing. I have so many fond memories and I would like to have some more. Do you know why NYRA has no race named for Seattle Slew? That is my biggest knock on them. :mad:

If you people think New York is the greatest city in the world then you havent traveled the world. I like New York and it is BY FAR the greatest city in the US and prob in the top greatest cities in the world, but I wouldn't put it at number 1. That distinction would go to Hong Kong.

The Stones or somebody of that ilk just had a concert a Pimlico a few months back.

Sorry, wasn't the Stones, was the Who and Gnarls Barkley and a couple of other bands. All at Pimlico.