7 - 13

I'm guessing today's loss will clinch HOY for 2017 for.......California Chrome.

Not sure I could give Shaman Ghost more then a 105 off the layoff etc

Can't say it was an exciting first rendition. Chrome needed to show up for that to happen. Great horse and career though and make he do well in the shed.

Really? A once in a lifetime talent just cruised geared down. That wasn't exciting? This horse is 1 or 2 more of these races away from best ever IMO. He is different. No other horse is even close to him right now and I believe he is still improving. He is a lightly raced 4yr old. The best is yet to come.

Who is your current best ever...Ghostzapper?

well chrome didn't fire nad it seemed that the trainer had a lot of knowlwedge concerning the specifics of what he thought went wrong. makes you wonder if he was hurt before the race..just saying

Yeah, the hen is full of hyperbole, but Arrogate is pretty awesome.

Point number one : There is absolutely no way on God's green earth that Art Sherman or the ownership team would have risked the breedings rights on this horse by running him injured. Say what you will about the ownership, but Art Sherman deserves more credit and respect than that.

Point number two : Hung wide as expected, Chrome was travelling well along side Arrogate moving along the backside. He seemed to lose action heading into the turn which could have been related to the shift in the jockeys weight to handle the turn. This could explain an outer knee injury.

Point number three : Horses get injured during the running of a race. Dr. Bramlage's early assessment was that this was not going to be serious, but Espinoza clearly understood that the horse had injured himself and wrapped him up into the stretch.

I agree with everything except for the 1 or 2 more races. That's just ridiculous but understandable considering your bromance with Bob.

Best ever? That's funny.

Best horse since Ghostzapper is more like it. What he is really demonstrating is what happens when a great talent races against a lot of very mediocre supposed good horses.

Watching Arrogate against these horses is what it would have looked like if the 3YO Rachel Alexandra had raced against Songbird.

fixed that for ya

That's also true.

Thanks!

Rachel would have ducked songbird and beholder the way she ducked Zenyatta

Rachel would have also ducked shipping past the Rocky Mountains.

Alternate Universe Rachel makes her debut at 5 in a 4 horse field on a Thursday.

Jesus f$&k.

Apple Blossum time .... announced well in advance. Rachel didn't show :confused:

There were other considerations involved that didn't involve Zenyatta phobia, but hey, you wouldn't be the first Zenyatta fan to talk out of their butt.

When I say best ever I guess I get a tad excited. I should say best I have seen. My knowledge of the game goes back to like the late 90s. The best horses I have seen are Point Given, Bernardini and Ghostzapper. Ghostzapper being 1 by a lot. I have seen monster races from Quality Road and Frosted, but never anyone paring races up like Arrogate. Has a horse even Ghostzapper ever run 3 races like Arrogate just has?

I'm with you on the last sentence.

Cigar was better than Ghostzapper

They both were a tad bit overrated. I'd take Arrogate, especially at this point in their careers, even though both of those other two had more promising beginnings.

I kind of figured that. Appreciate the clarification.

All of Ghostzapper's route races were monster races(his last 4). Plus among those he beat in those races were Saint Liam, Roses in May, and Pleasantly Perfect, all of which were better horses than anything Arrogate has faced, including Chrome, IMO.

Maybe want to check Timeform's site, looks like the race may have had some severe timing issues.

I just cannot agree that Roses in May or Pleasantly Perfect were better the than CC, Saint Liam probably not as well.

Just my opinion of course. Does CC's Classic last year beat Roses in May in '04? I have my doubts. Pleasantly Perfect beat MDO twice on the square, which is good enough for me, though PP wasn't his best when Ghostzapper beat him. Saint Liam's Woodward vs Ghostzapper is better than anything CC has run, and he also won a BC Classic. If they weren't better, they are most certainly in the discussion.

To throw another horse in there from that timeframe...I'm not positive CC is better than Congaree either.

I think you need to clarify distances, I guess for discussions sake I am thinking 10 furlongs.

My memory of Pleasantly Perfect was he was a very nice 10 furlong horse who grinded his way to wins but was not overly fast.

Congaree at 8-9 furlongs was certainly a top top class horse.

I never thought Roses in May was very good historically.

Agreed. I was just trying to compare Arrogate and Ghostzapper through some of the horses they faced, and now I've probably gotten to the point where the line of tangency ain't touching the curve anymore.

Steve Haskin's saying on FB that he read a column by the Timeform US clocker disputing the final time of the Pegasus as 1:46 4/5 which would equal the track record. He said he timed it himself at 1:46.89. The blame seems to be on the discrepancy between the run-up of the Poseidon and the Pegasus. A FB friend of his posted pictures of the two and they do look different.

What was Shaman Ghost's BSF in the race?

So I timed it watching the race three times. While this is crude I got 1:46.95, 1:46.89 and 1:46.99

at this point i think all that do this stuff professionally agree that the final time is wrong, I have seen anywhere from 146.10 to 146.90

either way its off, considerably.

Cigar and Ghostzapper had promising beginnings? Ghostzapper was 11 to 1 in his maiden win and cigar didnt really show promise till his 14th race of his career. Ghostzapper was not overrated. He was a freak at almost every distance. 120 beyer figure or more at 7F, 1mile, 1 1/8. and 1 1/4.

Ghostzapper was legit, he is the standard in my book the last couple decades.

Ghostzappers debut was fantastic. Eye popping even.

Cigar, I thought he was going to win a BC when he broke his maiden going 6f on dirt. He was so impressive I bet him just about every time he ran until he started his win streak on the East Coast. I believe he lost them all.

GZ didnt really live up to his debut until he ran at Saratoga.

Yeah, it's pretty commonly held that he was the best horse in the last xx years. It's not an opinion I share however. Maybe Frankel asking to have Roses in May take back a little in the BCC tainted my opinion of him.

I think Candy Ride, Barbaro, Shared Belief and Arrogate were all more talented horses than GZ, albeit there are questions of soundness with all of them.

Also, I think Uncle Mo might have been exceptional too, but things didn't work out for him, and I may be slightly biased with him.

And American Pharoah, who knows how good he might have been?

If you're going to bring up Pleasantly Perfect as a horse that beat Medaglia d'Oro, I think we'd be remiss to not bring up Candy Ride. He destroyed MDO while setting a track record (sub 2:00) and earning the highest Beyer figure of 2003 (123). Prior to that race, he won a grade two on the grass while beating a multiple grade one winner in Special Ring. I think he merits a mention on this topic.

Uncle Mo was great. He was fast as a 2yr old. Had a legit sickness at 3 and came back to show true brilliance in a loss at Saratoga and the very fast Kelso romp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms-FD-LPEYc

So that's like a 122 beyer. Dam he is good.