Because its so slow around here that there isn't much to talk about...:D

Maybe we need another thread about Discreet Cat to improve the overall ambiance of the forum. :D

I know, we could title it "THE SHEIKS RULE". That would get people talking. Of course, whoever posted the thread would probably get called every name in the book...LOL.

I see you see his pedigree. Clouds the eye.
When I talk Mineshaft I saw a horse that WHEN challenged dug in, held form, did not change lines, head stayed low, he did not start to run upright when he got tired. Nothing changed in the turn of foot. I watch the replay when weighted down against Perfect Drift. Fantastic runner in my eye. The late great LITF covered enormous amounts of ground while staying relatively low. This is the form I covet. Bernardini looks fantastic when running with no exhaustion evident. What does his form look like when he is tired? How does he hold form when stretched to the limit? Does anything change, and if so what? Does his exhausted form still maintain its basic form with a little less turn of foot? Answer this? I cant, I have not seen him tired. NOT CHALLENGED.

I loved Foggy's form... Deep Impact also runs low.

Ah, so we see clearer now.

Maybe you'll feel differently the day after Yom Kippur ... but I doubt it.

So some Arabs have some nice horses. What's wrong with that? So they spend a lot of money? What's wrong with that?

Lots of horse racing industry people will hate the Arab horse owners for one simple reason.

Now that they are having success with their North American runners, we're seeing the sentiment tossed their way change from ridicule to to something even less attractive.

Personally, I wish them good luck. They have some nice ones, they got a triple crown race win and I look for their horses to do well the rest of the year.

Signed,
Unpaid Godolphin Shill

Lava who??????:p

THis animal has been challenged. I love this horse. But I dont know about him traveling. Seems to have trouble. But this is the horse I would like to see win the BCC. But JC could not stand to have a former claimer win an event of this magnitude. Got to have that blue blood.

And......... after he wins the JCGG and the BCC by open lengths and not challenged (IMO) this will still not be answered. After all there was a post last week how weak the top 10 was for 3yr olds and up. I can hear the excuses now for why Bernadini wins the Classic so easily (Invasor ran but not recovered and / or not that good, everyone knows Lava Man can't run outside the West Coast, None of the Euro's took to the dirt, such and such had a horrible ride, did not take to the CD track, etc, etc, etc.). So, if and when Bernardini runs away from these next 2 fields, does he "get his due" as a great horse or a horse that is running against both a week 3 year old class (which I don't agree with) as well as 3+ class (after beating olders 2x)? Lets face it there is no Ghostzappers, St. Liams, etc out there this year.

And this of course is exactly what many people would like to see happen. Unchallenged then off to the shed unblemished.

Not sure what you're getting at.

I don't dislike Godolphin because they're Arabs ( I dislike Hitler because he was responsible for the mass murder of millions of Jews among other atrocities but that has nothing to do with Godolphin ). I dislike them because I believe they have had a detrimental affect on major racing in America.

They have every right to have operated as they have but I simply don't see them as a friend of American racing. Perhaps that will change, and it does seem we are seeing a few more of their horses, but they have done a lot of damage over the last twenty years.

Not sure who these "people" you are referring to, but they are certainly not the majority of the board / fans. I don't get a chance to read all of the posts on this board, but I surely have not seen any that says I can't wait till xxxx horse retires??? Everything I read is about the desire for these horses to keep running?

Now if you are referring to the owners and those that would want to purchase his offspring then I agree. This horse is probably worth 25X (there are others on the board that would know this number better than me) its value in the shed than racing. Who can blame them? I don't if I was in their shoes (then again money is no object for them).

A) The head stayed low is a trait of most A.P. Indys...the good and the bad ones....A.P. Indy himself was what we call a "rooter", or a horse that carries his head extremely low when in full stride....MANY A.P. Indys do this, even the bad ones...trust me on this...

B) Mineshaft was not as precocious as Bernardini and he just wasn't as good as him either...period...I'm sorry for those who disagree but I'm supremely confident we'll all see this to be true by the time Bernardini retires....i know them both VERY well, especially Mineshaft through Robby Albarado and Neil Howard and my days at Fair Grounds....trust me...I've put my hands on the horse many times...Bernardini is in another league...he just is...

C) Mineshaft's pedigree was comparable to Bernardini's but that is all IMO...he is not near the physical specimen, nor near the athlete...sorry, Bernardini is just more superior in several categories that it would take me longer to explain than its worth typing...

D) Also, Mieshaft has been a disappointment at sire as far as how his babies look in relation to the book of mares he got...Vindication and Empire Maker - fellow first crop sires - blew him out of the water in the sales arena....Bernardini has the chance to be a better stallion than his sire IMO...

E) LITF had one of the best bio-meshanics systems as long as that could be sophisticatedly measured....it was scientifically proven that LITF had hardly any wasted motion...all of his energy was positively moving forward and in an efficient, momentum and ryhtmicly generated motion.....he had very little wasted motion....Bernardini's stride is just as good or better IMO because he is so athletic that his feet don't appear to remain on the ground as much as LITF...An example of horrible action and severe wasted motion is Discreet Cat - but look how good he is with all of that extra, wasted motion...BTW, Mineshaft didn't move half as nicely as Bernardini does...

F) Bernardini has handled everything to this point with the upmost class and with immense ability....What makes you think he doesn't have the class to dig in and be a competitor when challenged? I would bet anything that he has the heart of Tiznow...he is a consumate pro in too many areas for me to believe otherwise....Plus, why fault the horse because he hasn't been challenged in the stretch yet? That just goes to show you how much better he is than the other horses...Any horse that can win a Classic race by open lengths as easy as he did IN JUST HIS 4th LIFETIME START is nothing short of special....He has won 4 straight graded stakes and 2 Grade 1s - ALL BY OPENS LENGTHS AND WITH IMMENSE EASE....Is that his fault? What more do you want him to do? Would you like him to slow down and let them catch him in mid-stretch before he starts to try?...comon man...:rolleyes:

If the horse retires undefeated then one might be able to claim they got to see Colin or Personal Ensign. I like to see horses have to work for some of their victories. Not the horses fault though. I think the BCC will be a suprise for this horse. I get the field, who takes Bernardini in the BCC?

By the way, disliking Goldolphin and the other Shieks because of how rich they are doesn't make sense to me....Nearly every poster on this board cannot relate to 99% of the owners in this industry as far as where they are on the economic scale, so who cares how rich the Shiek is? Jess Jackson, Jack Wolf, Mrs. Robsham, Mrs. Lewis, Ahmad Zayat...I could go on for 20 thread worth of names are ALL rich....when does rich become 'too rich'....I don't fell sorry for any of these millionaires.....just because Godolphin is wealthier than the rest of the rich crowd of Thoroughbred horse owners, why hate? He also puts up fifty times the risk that all other owners do....Remember this, horse raicng is a NON PROFITABLE business for 99% of owners and anybody else saying otherwords is just plain lying through their teeth...

If they wanted to take their ball and go home then it would adversly impact our industry by hundreds of millions a year - a negative impact our industry could not afford...many small breeders would go out of business if this happened...thats just a fact...why hate our game's biggest investor? :eek:

I think most people hate them because they percieve they are directly resposible for the fact that when they go to the pumps they have to fork up $3/gallon to put into their old Honda Civic when they know how rich the Shieks are...I think that is the root of 90% of the anomosity - of course that is just my opinion......the bottomline is that most owners in this game live in the top .5% of the economic ladder....whats rooting for the 'little' guy who is ONLY worth a few million instead of the Shieks as the enemies because they are worth $100 billion???...Rich is rich to me....it is a rare enough class...

"Garrett Gomez looking all over 4 the competion"


Durkin

Tell em Cunningham all those people can basically retire after pinhookin 1 horse that the Sheik wants. Seems like he does more for America than the people that are B I T C H I N about him and his money.:D

I don't have any personal animus against the Sheik for anything other than what I perceive to have been his detrimental effect on American racing....period. I suppose if I dug deeper, or was less superficial, I could probably find other things to dislike, but this is not my concern at the current level. He is simply, as I see it, the enemy of American racing...or certainly has been.

Now, as far as suggesting they has risked a great deal more than the other rich people you brought up, well yes and really NO. Yes, the dollars they have put into the game are far greater but as a percentage of their net worth, the Arabs haven't come close to investing what the others you brought up. And, considering the vast wealth of the Arabs involved in the game, they have WAY more money left over should they lose every cent they put in the game than the others you brought up. So, in essense, their financial risk is ZERO.

The bottom line is they have contributed one thing, and really one thing only to this business in America, and that is dollars. They have enriched breeders and owners alike. But, what they have also done, is exported our finest bloodlines, and given us very little back in the way of sportsmanship in return. As I said before, they can do as they like, but I don't have to like it. I'm a horseplayer, and a racing fan, and I gain nothing from the bloodstock business.

My apologies for going off topic, but what did you think of Barbaro's stride?

Also, on a side note, I don't think you have to be the richest of the rich to get the best yearling...as the recent study on the high priced Storm Cat's who have sold at Keeneland indicated, racing success can be achieved by the better eye, not always the better wallet. Of course, for horses in training, having the bigger wallet to make huge offers is very good too. ;)

I respectably disagree, BTW...I tried to type in length why I disagree based on their economic impact but make post timed out when I tried to post it......

Barbaro had a grand stride....covered as much ground as any horse you'll see, but he DID have that high, turf action where his knees went really high in his natural gait and when he came down he slapped the ground pretty good, which is not advantageous for the health of a horse his size...he is a big, heavy animal.....I will say this though, he was pretty damn smooth for his size - which is just a testiment to his natural athleticism...

Does anyone know what he got for a thoro number for that effort?

yup, I never liked his stride because of that high action.

If Discrete Cat were to go in the Breeders' Cup (really any he's eligible for) he certainly would not be a top choice for me. Why? Because he's never faced any top grade North American competition. Not a single graded stakes winner in the Jerome. He did face a full field in Dubai and beat Invasor (who clearly did not run his best race) but I wonder how Discrete Cat would stand up to the insanity that the 14-horse BC Sprint is.

I loved the way that horse moved. His stride was gigantic...He covered so much ground that it was unbelieveable. When his he was in the suspension stage of his stride when all four legs were off the ground, the toes of his hooves were literally like a foot and a half off the ground. He was a freak in that sense. I forgave his high knee action, although Joel was right in that it causes a horse to hit the ground a little harder than what is desirable. However, it didn't seem as if Barbaro hit the ground very hard at all. He was a very tall horse, but he was hound gutted and finely built. His conformation and movement is what made him so fast. Barbaro was in every sense, a freak.

He is not undefeated. He lost his 1st race.

Better than Mineshaft no way in hell. Not yet. NO flippin way. Way premature. And who cares about how early he shows his stuff besides people that want to win IMMEDIATELY, which of course one of the WORST possible things for this sport. Cmon Joel C.
Heart of Tiznow??????????

WTF. You have to be challenged. Good lord, the supposition is amazing. Your making me want this horse to fold up like a garage sale lawn chair, and I really like the horse.

Yep, which means that he could lose again.

Couldn't agree more. Beat older horses a few times before he is annointed the best thing since sliced bread...Plus, taking a shot at his foals is premature. Plus I don't judge horses based on how well they do in the shed. Is Spectacular Bid somehow downgraded b/c he was a bust in the shed? Of course not. Let's give Bernardini some time. Like another year. Then we can look again.

Corrected. Thanks.

Cunningham and I do not see eye to eye on strides. Again. One never knows how a horse will HOLD form when challenged while TIRED.

Example. If we had a car dressed as a horse that challenged Secretariat the whole way in the Belmont I do not think he would have had the same time. Secretariat was running so smoothly, very relaxed, because the horse was not challenged. I take nothing away from that run because the horse was extraordinarily fast. But he would not have run that smoothly, imo, if he had horses surrounding him down the stretch. Very few thoroughbreds maintain the same stride when tired and challenged, very few. So I wish to see him challenged and run with the same stride. Tiznow my arse.

Fair enough, but I've seen plenty of posts knocking this horse for winning too easily. Should Bernardini be penalized for being exceptionally talented? I also think people are assuming that he will show no heart when challenged- based on what? What happens if he wins the Classic in fine style, and doesn't have to truly dig down to earn that victory? Does he then get penalized because he was too good, even for the older horses?

We are all hoping that he doesn't lose this one...This one is much more important.

Call me weird, but I almost hope he does. I just haven't liked him much since the get-go. I'm sorry. :o

and i repeat:

Example. If we had a car dressed as a horse that challenged Secretariat the whole way in the Belmont, I do not think he would have had the same time. Secretariat was running so smoothly, very relaxed, because the horse was not challenged. I take nothing away from that run because the horse was extraordinarily fast. But he would not have run that smoothly, imo, if he had horses surrounding him down the stretch. Very few thoroughbreds maintain the same stride when tired and challenged, very few. So I wish to see him challenged and run with the same stride. Tiznow my arse.

Betsy, IMO, he'll show a lot of guts when he is challenged. I mean, look at the expression on his face when he runs. He has one of the meanest looks of any horse that I have ever seen while running. He is fierce and menacing. He always has those ears pinned back, and that eyeball turned backward, and that nose crinkled, daring for a horse to come close to him in the stretch even though the other horses are lengths back. He is also one of the best galloping horses that I have seen. His stride is so rhymical, powerful, and fluid.

And you basically read my mind on those other questions that you asked. However, I think that he will be challenged sometime or another in a race. Some people will always criticize Bernardini for one reason or another no matter what he does...Personally, I think that he is fantastic.

Cajun, for some stupid reason, I thought that you all were talking about Barbaro, not Bernardini. That was my mistake.:o

We were talking about Barbaro earlier on this thread as well...

I read your post, but we're talking about different things. I think Bernardini has a beautiful, effortless motion, but if he looks different when hooked, it will hardly change my opinion of him. I don't love him just because of his mechanics. In any case, Bernardini can't win for losing. If he beats horses easily, even a top field in the Classic, it won't prove anything because he was too good? In order to prove himself, it would be better if he were less talented?

Sorry man, he's better than Mineshaft...I know he has to prove it by his race record to justify it to those who can't decipher between the talent of the two - but I knew when I saw him break his maiden, win the Withers and then improve around two turns by running away in the Preakness in just his 4th lifetime start - I knew he was better than Mineshaft...you can just see it if you know how to judge horse talent....

BTW, he probably won't have to be as game as Tiznow in his career IMO....some brave horses like Tiznow look brave on a frequent basis because they like to wait on there competition to come to them and then re-accelerate....Bernardini doesn't hang, he runs the race his rider asks of him and doesn't need the competition to fire...that is the ultimate sign of class IMO....don't blame him for not being hooked yet becasue it is unlikely that happens much in his career....he is just too fast and he will frequently run away from his challengers in the stretch....I would bet anything that if he encounters a challenger that is actually fast enough to hook him - which I believe to be unlikely - he will respond with the same class of a champion he has shown in every other aspect of his racing career to this point IMO

I also think he'll show his class and heart in battle (no big surprise there) - he seems to be an extremely competitive horse. He'll be in a real dogfight in the Classic - big field, tough and talented older horses- if he wins, whether it's easily or by a nose, he'll have earned it. I really am sorry that Invasor won't be in the Gold Cup ; I'd like to see Sun King in the race or even Wandering Boy. In any case, Saturday is going to be fun; I'll finally get to see him up close and in person

I envy you Betsy. I have to wait until Nov. 4th to see him.