King Glorious was pretty damn fast too. Set a track record in his debut. Set a stakes record in his second start. Ran a 1:08 4/5 at Hollywood in his third. Ran 1:21 1/5 at Hollywood to just miss a track record in his fourth. The DRF reported at the time that it equaled the second fastest time ever for a 2yo.

Lost in the Fog is forgotten but he ran some really fast races. He may have been sub-1:07 twice. Olympic Prospect was another pretty fast one. At his best, Artax deserves a mention. He should have been horse of the year in 1999.

King Glorious's sprint that he won in the mud by like 20 was one of the great performances of that era.

I know he beat crap, but still. That was awesome.

I don't have the information needed right now to attempt any figures for him -- but I have no doubt he had a few killer figures -- especially the Bing Crosby where he got loose by 3 lengths at the 1st call and 5 at the half en route to an 8 length win. That Bing Crosby win also came as a 4-year-old.

Horses with his style that want to run-off and don't like pace pressure are capable of doing some very freaky things on speed figures on the days when they carry their speed the distance and when the track is speed friendly or inside speed-biased.

Gun Bow and Coaltown had races as a 4-year-old that are faster than anything I've seen. Both horses are great hall of famers -- but they were complete run-off types and had some bad performances scattered around.

A very recent example might be like a Commentator. He wasn't a total run off -- but he didn't respond to pace pressure well. He was just 13-3-1-4 lifetime in Graded Stakes races ... but he also had run Beyers of 119, 121, and 123 and could run a giant race at any distance when loose. Horses like Curlin, and Invasor aren't going to catch Commentator on his days when he's loose and the track is kind to his style. But, obviously, their accomplishments on the track are wildly superior, mainly because they can use their speed more efficiently during a race.

Just thought of a couple more that should probably be included in the conversation.

Housebuster

Smile

I don't think there is any way Housebuster can be in the conversation. First, he was more of a 7-8f horse than he was a 6f horse and in America, 6f is the main distance for sprinters. Second, he failed in his biggest sprint test. Third, I have a real issue with a horse that's supposed to be a champion sprinter losing not once but twice to two seperate horses that won the BC Classic at his preferred distance. He lost to Unbridled in the Deputy Minister and to Black Tie Affair in the Commonwealth.

I really never understood the love for Housebuster back then.

He was a good one.. nice that he still holds the 5 Furlong record 16 years later that he took from Lure.

Kelly Kip breaking Lure's track record: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hCx_Fj3Zzk

.

Unbridled was unbeaten in 3 one-turn races following his Kentucky Derby score. Housebuster was coming off a 6-month layoff precipitated by an ankle injury.

As for Black Tie Affair, he was a well-established sprinter at the time he defeated Housebuster. In fact, that was his second victory in the Commonwealth, having won the previous year. He was also 3rd in the '90 BC Sprint and ran in the race in 1989 as well.

Just more proof that horses with stamina are inherently superior to sprinters, but I certainly wouldn't knock Housebuster as a sprinter because he lost to that pair.

Dixie Union beat Caller One. Pleasant Tap beat Cardmania. Dancing Spree beat Safely Kept.

You wouldn't know it from his BC performances, but if we ignore 2yo sprints (I know this will have serious repercussions for the King Glorious fan club), Smile's record sprinting wasn't very pretty. I believe he was double digit odds in both his BC Sprint starts. He was buried by Phone Trick in NY, was off the board in the Vosburgh and the Philly Park BC.

That's not to say he wasn't a very good horse. Physical issues held him back some, but he was well-managed to make it to his 5yo season.

Yet another route horse who put the best sprinters in their place.

I'm aware of the records of both Unbridled and Black Tie Affair as well as those other instances you mentioned where good routers beat good sprinters. I never said Housebuster wasn't good. I said those were the reasons why I could not put in in a conversation with the best sprinters. As I also said, in this country, even though 7f is a sprint and even one-turn miles like the Met are considered sprints by some, 6f is the main distance one must excel at to be a champion sprinter. It's just like with humans, 200m is a sprint race. Even 400m is a sprint race. But the 100m champion is the one generally considered the fastest man in the world.

This is interesting, because unfortunately, as you mentioned, Housebuster only ran twice at the 6f distance following his 3yo campaign (for the record, he won a little 6f stakes at 2 and the 6f Spectacular Bid at GP at 3)..

You say that Housebuster failed in his most important sprint test, I presume the '91 BC Sprint. Of course, Housebuster broke down in the race necessitating a leg brace and removal from the track via the horse ambulance. Perhaps we should let that race slide just this one time and turn our attention to the one 6f race he did compete in, namely the '91 Frank De Francis Dash.

Pitted against Housebuster, who had only won the Carter at that point, was1989 sprint champion Safely Kept 3 for 3 on the year. Also shipping in was Clever Trevor, reformed as a sprinter, and 2 for 2 on the year, both in stakes events. From the West Coast, the streaking Robyn Dancer, also 3 for 3 on the year setting a world record and fresh off an 8-length romp in the Triple Bend at Hollywood. D. Wayne Lukas had Sunny Blossom, the 6f track record holder at Santa Anita, entered of several placings in important sprints earlier in the year. The other entrant was Bravely Bold, who took down 4 stakes on the year. He ended up breaking down badly in the race.

Housebuster romped by 5, just shy of the 6f mark at Laurel. Safely Kept missed the break, but was spared having to battle torrid fractions set by Bravely Bold and Sunny Blossom.

Does this make him one of the all-time great sprinters? I guess it's debateable. But since you found cause to throw King Glorious's name in the ring, himself having just two 6f races to his credit (one a Grade 3 in June of his 2yo year, the other a Cal-bred $50k stakes with 3 horses in February of his 3yo year), I'm not so sure you should be campaigning with such fervor to strike Housebuster's name from the discussion.

I mentioned King Glorious was pretty damn fast. I didn't mention him with the best sprinters ever. My feeling is that he probably would have been one but his record doesn't support it. Neither does Housebuster's.

One of the problems I'm having with your reasoning is that you seem to hold Housebuster to a special standard, while the other horses you mentioned get a free pass.

Housebuster's stakes record at 6f: 3 for 4
Lost In The Fog: 5 for 8
Artax: 2 for 7

There doesn't appear to be many committed 6f horses in the upper echelons of racing. At least not nowadays.

Recent Sprint Champions:

Amazombie: 3 for 5
Big Drama: 4 for 6
Kodiak Kowboy: 2 for 5
Benny The Bull: 6 for 11
Midnight Lute: 2 for 2
Speightstown: 3 for 5
Aldebaran: 0 for 1
Orientate: 3 for 3
Squirtle Squirt: 2 for 3
Kona Gold: 6 for 17
Lit de Justice: 3 for 4
Cherokee Run: 2 for 4

I guess if we use 6f as the true gold standard, then the debate is between Xtra Heat and Soviet Problem.

Where would a horse who won 17 stakes, setting or equaling six track records and winning 35 of 76 starts in a nine-year campaign, earning $1,079,915 fit into the equation ?

Bold Ruler obviously was a great sprinter.

He was 13-12-1-0 lifetime in sprints. He failed miserably in his first several attempts routing, but ultimately developed to where he could carry his speed further.

A case could be made that this horse...



produced both the greatest male sprinter and greatest female sprinter of all-time.

Aspidistra is the dam of two-time champion male sprinter Dr. Fager and the dam of two-time champion female sprinter Ta Wee.

Dr. Fager was voted champion sprinter in 1967 and 1968. Ta Wee was voted champion sprinter over the males in 1969 and 1970. Between the two horses, Aspidistra was the dam of the champion sprinter four years in a row...she was also risked for a $4,500 claiming tag.

Make it stop.:wf

Sorry, I can't help with vaginal discharge

Make what stop?

This is some of the best racing discussion this board has seen in months.

Which leaves me with the burning question, was Aspidistra named after the radio transmitter or the houseplant?

You know, looking back at some of the Eclipse Award winning sprinters in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, it sure didn't take much to win one.

The Vosburgh was pretty much all that was necessary.

It was such a great race before the BC when it was 7F and at Aqueduct. This is one of those examples when the good old days really were the good old days.

Yep, that is what it looked like. A lot of winners had little but a Vosburgh win. The Fall Highweight seemed an important race, and I guess big races around one turn at 1m carried some weight as well.