i think based on everything that what it all comes down to is t martin would be alive and well were this guy not hell-bent on being some sort of wanna be cop vigilante. he had no business doing what he was doing, and trayvon reacted the way any normal person would. the guy wasn't a cop, wasn't a security guard-trayvon probably figured the guy meant him harm. why would he think otherwise? the guys is a loose cannon and a nut.
zimmerman didn't act in self-defense, he went out of his way to force a confrontation. he was the aggressor in this whole sordid mess. had he done as told by the 911 operator, the boy would be alive and all this would never have happened. but no, he's a kook who acted improperly from start to finish.

:tro:

Without testimony from the kid Trayvon this will never be resolved to everyones's satisfaction, not even close...just do a thorough investigation and charge or release him....and as per Geraldo, don't wear hoodies, they are dangerous...

When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand
 

You mean like this guy:

http://profootball.scout.com/Picture...Bill+Belichick


Ocala Mike

Lori, this misses my point. My point is that many are jumping to conclusions without all the facts. I am not taking either side here, but to conduct a witch hunt without knowledge of the true facts and to believe everything the media spouts out as if it is true is just as much a disservice to everyone as letting a guilty man go free. People should allow the justice system time to resolve this without resorting to vigilante justice.

Especially not - if you are playing the Saints..

i agree with this.

Though.. if somehow this man is not even arrested, it send a very dangerous message. It almost makes it okay to act like a cop and follow someone for no reason, and then shoot when you feel like you're in danger.

Pam Biondi could 'prosecute' me anytime. She puts the cute in prosecute.

i fully expect that if they arrested GZ and put him on trial, he'd walk.

These people let that lady what killed her little girl free.

Where yo hood at? Represent yo hood. Lets make a mockery of the house and represent my district with multiple murders this week.

Such a shame what this country has become. That ass clown should be removed from office immediately.

that's true. and with the law as currently written, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see a not guilty verdict. now, what they would need to do is allow a finding of guilt to a lesser charge-in this case manslaughter. for that i can see a possible guilty verdict. but if they go for 2nd, i don't think it'll happen based on the law on the books, purported shoddy investigating and lack of witnesses.

and yes, absolutely they should wait and no one should jump the gun and have a witch hunt-the duke rape case taught many people that. but right now i can easily say that the one wouldn't be dead were it not for the irresponsible actions of the other. whether that makes him guilty of murder i don't know.

The most they could charge him with is voluntary manslaughter. Good luck with a conviction on that one.

yep. people want to know why he hasn't been arrested yet. he may never be.

If they had arrested Zimmerman, even on manslaughter, even upon unlawful discharge of a weapon, then at least all the witnessess, the cops, the tapes of the 911 calls, etc. could have a court-ordered slap of silence on it. They could have released Zimmerman on his own recognizance, not bail, depending upon what the judge that night chose, and the prosecutor could always drop charges and choose not to prosecute after an investigation.

The horror is that the family had to go to their congresswoman to get any investigation whatsoever of this at all in the first place, weeks after it happened.

A kid is dead in public, at the confessed hand of another citizen, with that phone call to the police, and zero investigation more than the cops at the scene that night? That's crazy.

And it turns out some cops at the scene wanted him charged.

Zimmerman's camp has to be thrilled it's playing out this way in the media, as it's contaminating jury member after jury member, even if moved to other venues in Florida.

Absolutely this should be resolved through the proper channels, but what started the whole media circus was the authorities choosing not to do anything about the situation, and in fact, doing things that sure don't make sense if one assumes they were acting in good faith (tagging the child as a John Doe even though they'd identified him, for one). And the more the media digs, the more weird stuff that comes out. If the Martins hadn't been smart enough to retain a good lawyer, and if the media hadn't picked up the story, it's entirely possible the whole thing would have been dropped, as the lead investigator, it's claimed, wanted to charge Zimmerman (sorry, I can't refer to him as GZ because I read that as Ghostzapper!) and the state attorney refused. That would have been the end of it without the media stepping in and not letting the story drop. And the state attorney and the chief of police have both stepped down. Which I find it hard to believe they would have done if they were acting in good faith.

If he is charged, more will become clear- at this point, without a charge, there's no way to subpoena hospital records to see if Zimmerman actually went to one for treatment for his alleged broken nose, of which there are no pictures, there's no way to demand an X-ray of him (a broken nose is, I'm told, is visible for years afterwards); there's no way to do lots of things that will, one hopes, make the picture of what happened clearer. For that matter, there's no way for a defense attorney to attempt to challenge the content of the final phone call Trayvon made, because he can't question Trayvon's girlfriend without her being called to testify at a trial.

The media circus is tedious, and as with OJ, and Casey Anthony, and I imagine, the Lindbergh Baby, there's a frenzy, and the media will certainly shape the story they want to tell (that Anthony did it, for example). And it may or may not be true. But in this case, at least it's forcing the state of Florida to do a thorough investigation.

But, yeah, as Riot said, it's contaminating the jury pool. By the time he is charged (if he is), Florida is going to have to start combing the Everglades for swamp people. Everyone else will have an opinion.

You keep saying that Zimmerman was following the kid "for no reason". He was following him for a very good reason. Zimmerman is the neighborhood watch captain. He knows the neighborhood and he knows the people who live there. It's a gated community. He sees a person that he has never seen before, walking through the neighborhood. Why wouldn't he follow him? What would be the point of neighborhood watch otherwise? If you were working neighborhood watch and you see a person in your neighborhood that you've never seen before, would you ignore them?

I've never officially been involved in neighborhood watch but I always keep my eyes open. When I do see something suspicious, I call the police. And I always follow the person until the police arrive. If I didn't follow the person, the police would never find the guy. The police usually don't arrive for at least 10 minutes. The person may be 10 blocks away by then.

Some of you have commented that Zimmerman should have already been charged with manslaughter. Whether we are talking about this case or another case, the police are not going to charge a person until they have a strong case. You have to remember that if they charge a person, the preliminary hearing is usually held within a couple of weeks.

At the preliminary hearing, the burden on the prosecution is not as a great as it is at trial. But the prosecution does have to show the judge that there is a strong case against the person. If the prosecution doesn't have some pretty strong evidence of the person's guilt, the judge will throw out the case. It won't even go to trial.

This is why it can often times take a long time for a district attorney to file charges. They want to wait until they feel they have a strong case. They want to wait until they feel they have enough evidence not only to present the judge at the preliminary hearing, but enough evidence to prove that the person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt at trial. The last thing in the world they want is to have such a weak case that the judge throws it out at the preliminary hearing, before it even gets to trial. That has happened before too.

In this particular case, as of right now you have Zimmerman saying that Trayvon attacked him and was beating the crap out of him. He says he acted in self-defense. The police and prosecutors need to find evidence that contradicts this. If they can find some forensic evidence that contradicts this or if they can find a witness that says Trayvon didn't attack Zimmerman first, then they might be able to build a case against Zimmerman. But at this point, I don't think they have anything that contradicts Zimmerman's story. At this point, I don't think they have much of a case. In Florida, if a person is beating the crap out of you, you have the right to use deadly force.

Would you continue to persue even when the police dispatcher clearly tells you not to. To me he becomes the aggressor at this point.

I would continue to pursue in my car but I would certainly keep my distance. I would stay in my car and I would stay a good 50 to 100 yards away while I followed. You don't know if the person is armed. And even if they're not armed, you don't want to get into a physical confrontation.

Zimmerman obviously made a huge mistake. He got way too close. He should have never gotten out of his car.

Exactly what should have been done. Zimmerman was looking for a conforntation and this is why the Fla law is so ****ed up. You can provoke someone and then kill them and with no witness easily get away with it. Zimmermans past arrest speaks alot to his character to me. He appears to be a tough guy looking for a fight.

I think that is a serious problem with that law. As you said, I think you could conceivably provoke someone and then kill them and get away with it, if there were no witnesses. That could happen.

I don't think that is really what happened in this case, at least not intentionally. I don't think Zimmerman planned on killing the guy. I think he just wanted to be able to tell the police where the suspect was when they arrived.

I was reading about a case down there several years ago where a guy and his neighbor got into a dispute over garbage cans. The neighbor ended up shooting this guy twice. The guy survived even though he got shot twice in the stomach. The neighbor was an ex-cop and he was never charged. To me that case was much worse (worse in terms of arguing self-defense) than the Zimmerman case because there was no physical altercation. The guy was approaching his neighbor, but I think he was still a good 15 feet away when he got shot. I think the neighbor (the ex-cop) knew the law and basically provoked the guy on purpose.

And if you're going down that path then the real problem is neighborhood watches and homeowners associations. These jokes were formed because scared motherf.uckers wanted extra protection. So little Hitlers take the jobs of HOA presidents and neighborhood watch security.

It was only a matter of time before something like this happened.

Personally I wish both of them would have died. I have no use for retarded tween thugs that still think no limit records is relevant. And I definitely have no use for a retarded 20-something control freak who looks like a volunteer fireman.

This country doesn't need to riot over two pieces of s.hit. And there is no debate that these two humans were scum.

i read he wasn't even a member of neighborhood watch. then there's the 911 operator telling him not to follow martin. and it's certainly not nw rules to carry a gun, or confront a person. other than all that, you're right. :rolleyes:

A lot of people carry guns in Florida. It is very easy to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon in Florida. It was totally legal for Zimmerman to be carrying that gun. If you have a concealed weapons' permit and you do neighborhood watch, I don't think it would make much sense to leave your gun at home.

I guess Zimmerman got out of his car and started following Trayvon on foot after Trayvon cut down a grass path that went between houses. Zimmerman obviously couldn't drive on the grass path. Most people would have probably given up the chase at this point but Zimmerman was obviously a little overzealous.

We know that at some point Zimmerman and Trayvon came face to face and they had some words. Trayvon supposedly asked Zimmerman why he was following him. Zimmerman supposedly asked Trayvon what he was doing there. We don't know what else, if anything was said after that.

According to Zimmerman, at some point he walked away and was heading back to his car. If that is the case, then the confrontation was over at that point. If Trayvon attacked him while he is walking back to his car, after the verbal confrontation is over, then I think Trayvon was the aggressor. Some of you have argued that Zimmerman was the aggressor, which he may have been at the beginning. But after he walks away and is heading back to his car, neither man is a threat to the other. Trayvon has no justification to attack him at this point and I think Zimmemran is totally justified in defending himself.

If this in fact is how things went down, I don't think prosecutors have much of a case. Prosecutors will need to come up with some evidence that shows that things did not go down like this.

It's not effing against the law to be walking while black. It's not against the law to walk down a grass path between houses. Wearing a hoodie and being black doesn't make you "acting suspicious" or "on drugs" or "hand in his waistband, I don't know what his deal is".

There was NOTHING the kid did to cause Zimmerman to "follow him" other than his color and daring to exist. What the hell was Zimmerman "chasing"?

Then Zimmerman killed an innocent kid. He was a predator. He pursued the kid. Video of Zimmerman at the police station shows no dirt on his clothes, no grass stains, no blood stains, no injuries. He's a ****ing liar, and he needs to be brought to justice. You want history? Zimmerman following and harassing other people who live in that subdivision. Zimmerman carrying a gun. Zimmerman calling police over 40 times for "stuff". Zimmerman fired from a security job for his temper. Zimmerman with RO from ex fiance. He looks like a regular dangerous, stupid police wannabe and his ego and sheer stupidity killed a 17-year-old kid.

There is no evidence that Trayvon's race had anything to do with it. Could his race have had something to do with it? It is possible but there is no evidence of it. To prove a case, you need evidence. You can't just say I have a strong feeling that he followed him because of his race. You need evidence.

I can see how you could suspect that race could have been an issue. But I have no idea how you can "conclude" that race was an issue. Let's pretend that Trayvon was Latino. Are you saying that Zimmerman would not have followed him? If that is what you are saying, what evidence do you have to support that? My guess is that Zimmerman would have followed any young man that was a stranger in the neighborhood.

On the video, I think you could clearly see that Zimmerman had a gash on the back of his head. There are several witnesses that said he had a bloody nose. Do you think all those people were lying? Zimmerman was treated for his injuries at the scene. The fact that you couldn't see blood on him in the video, after he had been cleaned up at the scene, is hardly proof that there was no altercation.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying? Are you saying that you don't think there was a physical altercation? Assuming there was a physical altercation, I don't think there is anyone who said it was a 20 minute fight. The fight probably lasted 10 seconds. I wouldn't expect someone who got punched for a few seconds to look like someone who went 10 rounds in a boxing match.

Actually yeah, there is: the only thing Zimmerman knew about this kid, reported to the police, was that he was black and he "didn't know what his deal was". Zimmerman called in a kid walking alone a street simply because he was black. The kid was doing nothing but walking.

No. Not at all. There is zero evidence of any "gash" on his head. There is zero evidence of blood on the back of the shirt (head "gash") or the front of the shirt ("broken nose"), along with zero dirt or grass stains. Witnesses said he was wearing this shirt during his fight with Treyvon.

Even tiny head lacerations bleed like crazy, especially when you are fighting, and your adrenaline and blood pressure are sky high. Impossible for him to have anything other than a bruise and a completely minor skin abrasion with no blood - and virtually impossible to have any scalp skin break at all, ignored during a fight, without some blood. Let alone zero blood from a "broken nose".

There are witnesses the police ignored that said the opposite. Right now on the video there is zero visible evidence of swelling, injury, blood on his face, blood on the back of his clothes, blood on his sleeve. Amazing, if his nose was broken in the front, and his head "gashed" in the back. The immaculate broken nose?

He was not treated by ambulance personnel, according to the police he was "treated in the back of the squad car". Really? We're supposed to believe that? That no help was called for this crime "victim's" gash and broken nose? Sorry. He didn't change clothes. There is no blood on his clothes. And as a former paramedic, I'll tell you that we don't wash people off. And in a murder, the police wouldn't let us eliminate any blood evidence anyway.

I'm saying that the facts leaked by the police don't match with the dog and pony show Zimmerman's brother is putting out to the press. The tapes make it clear there were nearly a minute of a person screaming for help, stilled by a gunshot. This police department has a history of racial incompetence and problems in the community. The current police chief was brought in to fix it. Now he's on leave, too.

The problem isn't whether Zimmerman was justified in murdering this child. The problem is this appalling police department of incompetents (yes, they have a record of racial/community problems). The problem is that a murdered kid was allowed to sit in the morgue for three days as a "John Doe", when they had a cell phone and neighborhood they could have canvassed. Took them three days to get that warrant to unlock a locked cell phone? That was dropped in a scuffle and possibly broken? The lead investigator wants an arrest, but he's told not to?

Nothing happened with this case for WEEKS, until the family of the murdered kid went to their Congresswoman. Just another dead black kid, no charges, nothing to see here.

According to the various 9-11 calls released by the PD, that have the fight and the murder (the shots) in the background, the "fight" lasted at least 45 seconds before a gunshot stills the cries for help.

I think you can clearly see the gash on the back of his head. You have to watch the video very carefully but when he gets at a certain angle, it is clearly visible.

If Trayvon would have been a Latino male, are you saying that Zimmerman would not have followed him? If that is what you are saying, what do you base that on?

Here is a still photo of the gash on Zimmerman's head:
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/po...w-head-injury/

We will see what ends up happening. There is certainly a lot of pressure on the prosecutor to file charges. Now that the case is under a microscope, are you confident that a thorough investigation will be done?

Rupert, I'm saying that, if my teenaged son left to walk to the store and back during a televised basketball halftime, and never came home, and three days later I found out he was murdered, and there was very little "police investigation" at all into why my child was dead - I'd be calling my Congresswoman, too.

I've said multiple times in this thread: if they had charged Zimmerman with anything - even unlawful discharge of a weapon - at least there may have been some investigation, some retention of evidence, and trying the case in public could have been halted.

The police, this department with a long history of racial profiling and community unrest, and incompetence, decided within an hour or so no charges at all need be filed, against the advice of the lead investigator. A seventeen-year-old kid is dead, and the police said, "yeah, well, it's okay, it was self-defense, carry on everyone". That's beyond absurd incompetence.

When a pedestrian walks across the 4-lane New Circle Road in Lexington, and gets hit and killed by a motorist (sadly happens a couple times a year), the motorist is given a breathalyzer, report taken, scene forensics, etc. done. The cops just don't say, "Oh, you say didn't see him in the rain? Okay. We believe you", and let it go after an hour or two. Even if zero charges are filed against the driver as they couldn't avoid it. The investigation leads to the truth. A thorough investigation of why a person is suddenly dead at the hand of another.

There was little to no apparent investigation of the murder of this teenaged boy.

BTW: re the Daily Caller "enhanced" video: an alleged "possible" two-inch skull laceration produced no blood on the shirt witnesses said he was wearing at the scene? No. I'm not buying that, unless police photos taken at the time show one bloody mess on the back of his collar and shirt.

Any skull laceration, even tiny, produces copious amounts of blood - ask the parent of any two-year-old. And a lac that large calls for immediate sutures in the ER. That was never done. If it (what the DC alleges possibly could be a strange vertical cut along the top of the scalp) is true, it must have left a huge visible bumpy scar, having been left to heal without any wound closure.

rupe, i appreciate your detailed assessment but all of the above is not something new to me. however, it seems you completely ignored the part where i said 'he was NOT a member of neighborhood watch. had he been, perhaps he'd have known they don't want their members carrying guns. i guess you also ignored the part where the 911 operator told zimmerman not to confront trayvon.
i've also seen where there is no indication of there having been a scuffle, which belies your post.

There are 2 or 3 published 9-11 tapes of callers reporting a man down on the ground, screaming for help, and then a shot that stills the screams The scuffle (if it lasted during the screaming) is at least 45 (correction, 41) seconds long, not including the time it was happening before people telephoned it in as it was happening. ABC News must have a source, as they have the most information available from the PD (the tapes, etc)

Here's the tape of the 41 seconds of screaming for help, with the gunshot stilling the screams. Warning if you have triggers or PTSD. It's graphic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc

Here's the MSMBC color video of Zimmerman at the police station in handcuffs. You can clearly see, in a couple places, as Zimmerman has very close hair, there is no 2-inch skull laceration on the top of his head as alleged by Daily Caller. And these clothes have zero blood or grass on them (either front of shirt or back) and they are the clothes described by witnesses that Zimmerman was wearing at the time

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...artin-shooting

You know what I think happened? Zimmerman grabbed the kid, and was trying to restrain him for the police (hence the screaming for help by Trayvon, as a stranger grabbed him), he took out his gun from his waist holster to threaten the kid, and it accidentally went off and shot the kid dead on in the chest (yeah, they say it was a front entry wound).

Mortitian also says zero evidence of fight or wounds on Trayvon's body.

Anyone can keep a close eye on their neighborhood and act as a neighborhood watch. Some neighborhoods have official neighborhood watches that are very well organized and people actually work shifts. In other neighborhoods, it may be less organized where people just do it when they have time.

I have no idea what the arrangement was in this case. It seems that Zimmerman had been doing it for a while. I think they said he had called police around 45 times over the last year. I would assume that he did the informal neighborhood watch with the blessing of his neighbors. We will see if any evidence comes out that his neighbors didn't want him doing this and they saw him as being overzealous and/or harassing people.

I would agree with you that neighborhood watch programs do not encourage vigilantism. They want people to call the police. They don't want people carrying guns and chasing people.

But all that being said, if the verbal altercation was over and Zimmerman was attacked as he was walking back to his car, I don't think there is much of a case against him.

You are the first person that I've heard say that there was no indication of a scuffle. If that is what the evidence shows (that there was no scuffle), then they should have a good case against Zimmerman.

It already has, Rupert - see below. There are also plenty of neighbor stories that say Zimmerman was helpful and concerned about security and safety of the neighborhood.

I agree with you. I think there should be a thorough investigation. But I don't think people should be convicting this guy before there is a thorough investigation.

I think you bring up good points about no blood being visible on his shirt. I can't explain why there is no blood visible on his shirt. But I also can't explain why numerous witnesses said his nose was broken and bloody. I guess it's possible that they were all lying. It will be interesting to see what the medical report says and what the paramedics say. Some people might discount the medical report and claim that Zimmerman inflicted the injuries on himself before he went to the doctor (or hospital or wherever he got treated) the next day. But I think it will be hard to discount the testimony of the paramedics.

Fair enough. It appears that there are some people in the neighborhood that supported him and some who didn't. My guess would be that quite a bit more supported him than didn't, otherwise you would think that the homeowners' association would have told him to stop, if they had been getting a lot of complaints.

I disagree with you about the video. I think right at :41 seconds on the video, you can see the mark on the back of his head. Before I even read the dailycaller article and saw the still picture, I saw it on the video.

Now that we have the state attorney general, FBI, and the Justice Department involved, are you guys confident that there will be a thorough investigation?

Well, the FBI & Justice only prosecutes a hate crime, to my knowledge. And I thought Justice was also looking at performance of that PD overall due to their past record?

But they have a special prosecutor locally now, she has a great rep. If she says she's done a thorough investigation, and no charges should be brought, I'm good with that. Grand Jury to meet the 10th, but I think she can go ahead on her own before if she wanted.

Now three experts in voice recognition are saying they are certain the screams on the 911 calls are not Zimmerman's:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...0,250481.story

Also, a second ambulance was originally called for Zimmerman (first one was for Trayvon's corpse), but then cancelled:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...#ixzz1qiRUs3nD

Which doesn't help the claim that Zimmerman was seriously injured.

I wonder how "temporary" the Sanford Police Chief's stepping down from his position is going to be.