But that's not true. The employee's pay is determined - and the union dues are taken out of the employees gross pay (just like taxes) before the paycheck is handed to them. No work, no pay, no union dues.

Nobody is making the claim that an employees federal and state tax withholdings are "my taxpayer's money". They can't. That's absurd.

Employees are not forced into anything. They are free to take a teaching job where they don't have to be in a union. That's known up front, before the employee signs their hiring contract.

Look: Wiphan appears not to like (and he can correct me if it's wrong) that unions donate to Democratic candidates. But the argument "that is my taxpayer's money!" is completely and obviously false. It's the employee's money.

The Koch brothers don't like that either - hence the concerted, across the country word was handed out at the Republican Governors Association meeting to bust the unions. And meanwhile, back in Congress, we have Republican congressmen trying to loosen rules governing workplace safety, trying to lowering the minimum wage, etc. Look like unions shouldn't go anywhere soon. Unions don't get a hold in places where workers feel fairly treated by their employers.

Union dues are not taxes. They are taken out of their paychecks, they are involuntary. Saying that they can teach somewhere else is laughable. Techers teach where they can get a job. And since the vast majority of jobs are public school aka union jobs that is where they work. Unions dont want teachers or any other members the right to opt out or not be in the union.

Teacher works.
Teacher earns money.
Teacher gets paycheck.
That money belongs to the teacher.

Union dues come out of that paycheck.

Taxpayers thinking they have a right to say what union dues money is spent upon is ... beyond absurd. They have zero claim to that. Just like they have zero claim on the employee choosing to send $1 of their tax money to a wildlife fund.

Teachers are free agents. They have every right not to take a job where they have to join a teachers union. Private schools pay about 5% more in pay and benefits than Wisconsin public schools.

Trying to make the argument that union-busting is for the benefit of the employees is touching, but completely unbelievable :rolleyes:

Although it is nice to see, now that the union has agreed to all Walkers demands regarding pension contribution, pay cut, etc., yet Walker is going forward with his main concern, being busting the unions (as verified by his unbelievable silliness in sharing his plan for threatening workers with the imaginary "David Koch") - that it's crystal clear the whole point of this has less to do with budget deficits (like maybe caused by Walker giving $140 million in unfunded tax credits to business, oh wow, that's a huge deficit hole that could be filled by ... teacher pensions and pay cuts! But the damn unions are standing in the way ... hummmmm) and everything to do with typical Republican demagogary.

And there's more about power-hungry Gov. Walker and his bills
 

This gets better and better every hour. God, I love politics :p

I thought the highlight was Walkers tape today, revealing how he planned to trick Democrats under the false ruse of them coming back and "talking to them", so the Republicans could vote for the legislation withhout the Dems.

Or how he's trying to find out if he can charge the Dems with a felony regarding who could be paying for their hotel rooms (as he withholds their paychecks to be picked up personally in Wisconsin to try and get them back to the state) but wait, there's more fun here! :D

Gov. Walker tried to ram this bill through quickly, with little exam of the 144-page bill, little debate and scrutiny. Now we have a third reason why:

1. Hidden union-busting provisions
2. Hidden proviso allowing state government to sell off their state-owned electrical utilities to any chosen private company with no competitive bidding (like Koch brothers electric)

And number three hidden in the bill (reported today courtesy Amanda Turkel):

3. "The bill would grant the Wisconsin Department of Health Services (DHS) sweeping authority to making changes to the state's Medicaid program -- which covers one in five residents -- with virtually no public scrutiny. According to an analysis by the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau, Walker's plan would use "emergency" powers to allow DHS to restrict eligibility, raise premiums and change reimbursements -- all moves traditionally controlled by the legislature."

Walker is all about the power of doing it all himself, isn't he? He doesn't need any steenkin' legislature to enact laws!

Thank you, Wisconsin voters - Sarah Palin may be gone, but now we have this guy for our entertainment pleasure :-)

Can you outline to me the demands that the teachers union has agreed to and please give me specifics?

Just read any detailed news reports, or view any video of the union leaders, from the past week not labeled "Fox". I'm sure you'd rather do your own investigative digging on this story, so you have the true facts, and not rely upon my interpretation relaying it to you :-)

No I want to know from you specifically what demands of Scott Walker have the teachers union specifically agreed to? You seem to know so much about the topic and have so much information I want to know from you since you stated that the teachers union have agreed to his demands other than collective bargaining. What have they agreed to?

Oh, then go read your own post back at the start of this thread, where you outlined them :)

Taxes are also involuntary...

Is it absurd to think that the taxpayers should have some say in how much the teachers are paid in the first place? You mention the public teachers make 5% less than what private schools teachers make. Does that include benefits? That is what this is about. Are the public teachers not free to get a job at a private school?

Since you don't want to answer my first question I will try another one. What would be the reaction of the federal employees if President Obama proposed the same changes to federal employees that Scott Walker is proposing to WI state employees? Would there be as much outrage?

You do. You always have. It's called collective bargaining.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...and_local.html

I'm happy to answer your first question, except your deliberate and silly obtuseness is a waste of time - go read your own post where you accurately outlined what was in the Walker package regarding benefit and pension cuts. You know what they are. The unions have repeatedly, publicly agreed to those. They have agreed to everything but removal of collective bargaining rights. Walker refuses to compromise with them. He has stated so publicly when directly confronted by reporters asking about the union compromises.

Does it bother you, the other significant and important things hidden within that 144-page bill? That Walker is legally taking supervision and responsibility away from the legislature and consolidating them, without supervision, within the governors' office?

Such as the "emergency measures" regarding a new unilateral right of only himself to determine public aid qualifications, amounts paid outside the public or legislature?

The new singular ability of only himself to lease or sell, for whatever amount he wants, your state utility companies?

Do you think that is a good thing, that Walker is taking those activities away from current control by the legislature? That a Governor is trying to pass law to decrease the normal Legislative branch representation and control over major, expensive, important programs and income for your state, and place all of it, unsupervised and unaccountable, in the hands of one person who has to answer to no one else?

I'm shocked that everyone in Wisconsin, from any and all political persuasions, isn't angrily marching on the state capital and telling Walker he wasn't elected dictator, over the other secret hidden stuff, above, in that falsely alleged "fiscal" bill.

I'm sure if federal employees faced the sudden and complete loss of their right to collectively bargain, they'd behave exactly as union members in Wisconsin, Ohio and Indiana are acting right now.

Since federal employees don't have the right to collective bargain for wages, benefits, etc. they would be elated if they had the benefits Scott walker is proposing for state workers. If collective bargaining doesn't exist on the federal level why does it need to exist on the state level? Actually in Walker's proposal the union still has the right to collective bargain for wages. I don't see federal workers complaining about their jobs, benefits, heallthcare premiums, working conditions, etc.

The TSA doesn't have collective bargaining? I believe they do (but may be wrong). The rest of the federal government is indeed highly unionized in some sectors, although the Federal Government is "right to work"

Why shouldn't it exist on a state level? It's the states that entered into these agreements, too. The states gain by collective bargaining, that's shown by how their workers tend to get less than the private sector in nearly every case.

State workers have every right to collectively bargain. What are the reasons NOT to allow it? Especially when the current Republican House is trying to decrease minimum wage, decrease workplace protections (EPA and OSHA) Looks like unions may become more necessary if the GOP has their way with the current law.


No. They only have the ability to collectively bargain for wages only up to the CPI, which makes the value of that pennies.

Why are you ignoring the rest of what is in the Walker bill? That's some damn important stuff he's trying to sneak on through.

tsa has limited bargaining rights. treasury has a union-not sure who else is covered.

Wisconsin State Senator Tim Carpenter sends a letter to Walker, calls for his resignation:

http://wispolitics.com/1006/large/11...ter_letter.pdf

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/loc...cc4c002e0.html

TSA does not have collective bargaining rights

What is your solution to the budget deficit in WI? Do u borrow more $ or raise taxes like IL just did. Do u end up like CA begging for donations to keep schools running? Please offer me your solutions and by saying that you just agree to the contributions to pension and healthcare is not a viable solution. What do u propose?

If you do not limit collective bargaining with the teachers union then there is no negiotiating with them. If the teachers union had in the last 30 yrs actually given on some items we would not be in this situation. They have a monopoly. Do you know who the healthcare provider is for the teachers in WI? It is WEAT trust ie.- the teachers union plan. If you government were allowed to shop this plan with the same benefits they could save millions of dollars to the tax payers. The teachers union would not allow it. The average time to negotiate a contract with the teachers union is 15 months. Since Gov Doyle and the democrats put us in this situation and used Pres Obama's stimulus $ to fill the holes of the budget instead of create stimulus/jobs we do not have 15 months unless you would like to see mass layoffs. It is your choice either pass the bill or people lose jobs.

The people of WI voted last November. Our state is a tax hell. Most teachers when they retire (which they get the average of their last 3 yrs pay for lifetime and if they die their surving spoust gets it) move out of state because of the tax issues. WI people are tired of paying taxes, seeing corporations move large portions of their operations (Harley, Miller/Coors, etc.). Increases taxes does not create revenue and is not a viable long term solution since it is a never ending cycle since no revenue is created. Gov Walker is not a dictator. He is doing what he was elected to do by the people of WI. He won easily and ran on the very campaign items that he is doing today. Unlike most politicians he puts his $ where his mouth is. Elections have consequences as we all know.

Just to give you an example of the taxes a typical home married tax payer who owns a $200k house in Milwaukee and makes $75k annually pays in WI taxes not including federal taxes

Sales tax 5.1%
$5200 annual property taxes
$6318 state income tax

WI is a great state, but a tax hell and things need to change otherwise we will end up like MI

Tax the Rich - they need to pay more ! They "earned" it on the backs of the poor working middle class and come on let's face it they really didn't earn it,so it's not really theirs anyway.

Tax the Corporations - they are making too much money and there is proof that they are just stock piling their profits. It's really the peoples money, we just need to get our hands on it and get it into the government agencies so they can use it to the betterment of the middle class.



:rolleyes:

:zz: You're not saying that the unions have caused the budget deficits, I hope. That's certainly not true.

Wisconsin had a $136 million surplus this year, until Walker gave $140 million of unfunded tax incentives to corporations in his first month of office.

There is a 3.6 billion deficit projected over the next few years, which is far less than the 5.something billion deficit the last governor dealt with. In other words, there is no drastic or acute emergency right now as Walker maintains. That's a lie.

Walker has instituted this "budget repair bill", but there isn't enough deficit to trigger the need for a "repair bill" according to Wisconsin's own independent office of budget that consults to the state assemblies (repair bill is a technical term)

Since 1981, 2/3 of Wisconsin's corporations no longer pay any taxes at all.

Think that could be affecting state finances?

Maybe corporations could start paying some taxes. Rather than putting all taxes on working people.

This bill isn't about the deficit at all. It's just about union busting, and everyone knows it, even the Republicans now say that (as revealed on Walkers tape with "Koch" - will is leading to ethics violation charges for him)

Republican Assembly sneaks through vote - unbelievable
 

The Wisconsin Senators are still refusing to come home so a vote can be held (especially as Walker revealed on the phone call with "Koch" that he intended to trick them by lying to them about talking of compromise) So this bill is not yet passed, as it needs the Senate to pass it.

But the Republicans in the Assembly, late last night, while debate was literally going on on the floor quickly sneaked and gaveled a voice vote and passed the bill literally in seconds The Dems were not told a vote would be called, the GOP was. Most Dems didn't even get to vote, although they were all in attendance literally standing on the floor waiting to speak.

While they were still debating amendments, the speaker literally and suddenly out of nowhere gaveled and called for the vote: the GOP were prepped so they all immediately called out "aye". The speaker then said, "the ayes have it" and gaveled the vote to a close.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/wei...pair-bill.aspx

The above includes a cool video of it happening, the Democrats, some Republicans and gallery yelling at the Republicans, being escorted safely out by state troopers.

your right the pension benefits to teachers which they made zero contributions to and receive the average of their 3 highest years for the rest of their lifetime has nothing to do with the budget deficit. Not to mention the amount of baby boom retirees coming in the near future. Coupled with the rising health care costs that most pay zero dollars in premiums. However I am not blaming this entirely on them, our lovely governor doyle should take a lot of the blame for the last 8 yrs of disaster.

If you had your way we would have taken Obama's $800 million for "SLOW RAIL" (yes it would have been slower than a car) from Madison to Milwaukee that would have caused the state more budget deficits in operating profits because no public transportation systems pay for themselves.

In the end our Governor will not back down and this bill will pass. This is why he was elected.

How long did they debate? Really? The video shows how idiotic and unprofessional the democrats are. Try not showing up for your job for a week when you disagree with your boss or co-workers and see what happens.

I thought Chris Farley overdosed on Coke with a hooker years ago. It looks like he has been reincarnated as an assembly democrat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiZdY9rw-uo

The other GOP govs have already started jumping ship yesterday and today on supporting Walker. Enjoy him before the ethics violation hearings start, the state AG starts investigating him, and next January's recall.

No. The video shows how Assembly Republicans deceive and put politics before you and your fellow citizens, and their oath of office. A pre-planned secret vote? In literally seconds? Purposely not informing the other party? Yeah, that's democracy in action. Do you support that action in a democracy? Seriously?

And you support your governor kicking out the legislature, and taking single control, with no accountability, for selling or leasing your state utilities for whatever price he wants? That doesn't worry you?

And your governor kicking out legislative oversight, and taking complete control over who qualifies for Badgercare and public aid, and how much? With no oversight?

Wasn't Walker supposed to be a Tea-Party backed conservative? Why is he executing a Big Government Takeover? By the Governors office? Wasn't this supposed to be an "emergency" fiscal bill?

Let's go back to picking on those evil teachers (and prison guards and nurses) that have "ruined" Wisconsin's budget (while cutting taxes for corporations, so that most don't even pay any taxes, somehow magically hasn't made any negative revenue impact on the budget at all, over the past 30 years, apparently).

Those teachers and nurses that have exactly the pay and benefits that the State of Wisconsin has chosen to give them over the years. After all, these guys didn't steal it - they have exactly what Wisconsin agreed to give them. Let me share someone else's thoughts:

i dont make up stuff. they were given limited bargaining rights by the obama admin according to the feb 4 washington post article by joe davidson. would love to post a link, but im on my phone. google it, youll see what i read

wis won the superbowl so they can do what they want.,:mad:

and specifically Green Bay! Hold on Gov. Walker the PEOPLE are with you.

BTW Not sure if anyone is aware of this but WI people in general don't like and resent IL especially along the border. They fondly call them FIBS (f'n IL bastaards) recently updated to FIBTABS (f'n IL bastaards towing a boat). With IL and Chicago seemingly now baby-sitting the Dems at the Clocktower in Rockford (nice place to be held up in) many people now consider it a fight between IL and WI and you know how that will go.

GREEN BAY, Wis. (AP) — Hundreds gathered in Green Bay in an effort to recall state Sen. Dave Hansen.


Hansen, from Green Bay, is one of 14 Democratic senators who left the state Feb. 17 to block a vote on Republican Gov. Scott Walker’s budget repair bill that would discontinue collective bargaining for public-sector employees.


The Saturday meeting was organized by Green Bay resident David VanderLeest, who filed the recall effort. VanderLeest says nearly 14,000 district residents will need to sign petitions within 60 days to force a recall election.

Hansen, who was at an undisclosed Illinois location Saturday, told the Green Bay Press-Gazette that they have a right to push the recall but he’s not worried because he’s trying to protect the American dream.

http://www.gazettextra.com/weblogs/l...n-bay-senator/

That doesn't appear to be true:


One hundred thousand gathered Saturday in Madison, in support of Wisconsin unions, the largest demonstration yet, with supporting rallies held in all 50 states.

Russ Feingold has formed a PAC, and is reporting 71,000 signatures to put him on the gubnatorial ballot when the Walker recall occurs.

new book offering:

'how not to run a state', by the governor and legislature of wisconsin.

"Hundreds"

Reporting that police, who were supposed to close down the Madison capital at 4:00pm CST, and indeed ask people to leave at that time, are NOT forcing protesters who stayed to leave. In fact, there are off-duty police protesting there. All are risking arrest for peacefully refusing the request to leave, but apparently it's not gonna happen.

Another: "You get exactly what you vote for. By everyone. Buyer beware. Not voting = not a good idea."

I think that any Democrats who are threatened with recall will be alot safer in their districts within Wisconsin at the recall election, than the Republicans.